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  Cataloguing modern replica, fantasy patches

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Author Topic:   Cataloguing modern replica, fantasy patches
benguttery
Member

Posts: 542
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2005

posted 05-23-2009 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for benguttery   Click Here to Email benguttery     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Over the past few months I've seen a number of reproduced or fantasy patches sold for significant prices. I don't know if newer collectors realize or care what they are getting, but I've been thinking it would be nice to have a catalog of these that collectors can consult before spending $100 on a five year old patch that looks similar to a 40 year old patch.

I know the late Randy Hunt (Patches, Etc) from Florida produced many patches. I have a lot of them. Also Eagle One Aerospace under the late Randy Wagner also produced some. I think a collector in the Netherlands produces some STS mission patches (61F and 61G) as the missions were cancelled long before any patches were made.

Some of you probably kept mailings from Wagner as many of his were sold like a subscription. I kept electronic images of many of Hunt's patches.

Anyone interested in documenting this before it is all forgotten?

hoorenz
Member

Posts: 733
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 05-23-2009 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hoorenz   Click Here to Email hoorenz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That would be great for future collectors. Since it will require a lot of scans, we would have to find a place to host those.

Incidentally, I was the one who worked with Randy Hunt on the 61F and 61G patches (that is why there are "EH" initials in the patches).

I must be some ten years ago, when I was a beginning collector. Looking back, it is not something I am very proud off, but back then, it was such a special thing to have your own patch made.

Whenever I come accross one of these on eBay or somewhere else, I try to notify the seller that they are not original. Last month, I saw a 61G that was advertised as "souvenir", sell for something like $100 though...

spaced out
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Posts: 2597
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 05-23-2009 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw that souvenir STS-61F patch sell on eBay for $127.50 and thought much the same thing.

While it's nice to have produced a patch based on the design that would have been produced had it flown, it's clearly not the 'real' thing. If you created a replica version today it would be no different, and I can't see how anyone could value such a patch at $127 unless they've really misunderstood and believe it to have been an example actually produced for the flight.

Voyager1975
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posted 05-23-2009 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voyager1975   Click Here to Email Voyager1975     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I believe the stitching at least on the patch would be different if the patch was actually made back in 1986 if this mission was flown due to the older embroidery machines that were used as opposed to the machines of today. However, the layout and colors would be the same. Unless, of course, if this reproduction on eBay was made using a Schiffli machine, which I doubt that it was. That's my take on it anyhow.

Harald Kraenzel
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Posts: 283
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005

posted 05-23-2009 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any ideas on how to start such a project?

embangloy
Member

Posts: 68
From: Hendersonville, TN, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 05-30-2009 07:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for embangloy   Click Here to Email embangloy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Harald Kraenzel:
Any ideas on how to start such a project?

Maybe a list of these patches would be a good place to start. My suggestions would be to categorize the replica/fantasy patches by the artist first, then the mission/payload/etc; this way it provides an opportunity for the artist to receive the credit or recognition they deserve for their efforts.

Bill Hunt
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Posts: 378
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 05-30-2009 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hunt   Click Here to Email Bill Hunt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can understand wanting such patches to fill gaps in your collection - I don't have a problem with them being made or sold. My only real problem with the replica issue is that very many replicas have been sold over the years not identified as replicas. At least reputable people replicating patches introduce a "tell" (such as the initials on the patch above) and/or properly identify them as such. On more than one occasion in my early days as a patch collector, I paid a high price for such a patch thinking I was getting an original, only to be severly disappointed. On more than one occasion, I was fooled into doing so because the picture in the auction was of an original patch, when what I actually received was a replica. I had more than a few run-ins with Randy Hunt on these grounds. He was a decent guy, and I mean no disrespect, may he rest in peace. But it was a point of irritation for me that he, more often than not, either chose or simply failed to identify his patches as replicas. This is why I've gotten so expert at spotting originals over the years - I had to in order to stop getting taken advantage of. The problem now is that so many replicas were purchased and are now being resold by people who many not know they're replicas or really even care. So new patch collectors definitely need to exercise a little "buyer beware" - a good policy anyway I suppose.

KAPTEC
Member

Posts: 500
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005

posted 05-30-2009 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KAPTEC   Click Here to Email KAPTEC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bill, I agree totally with you.

Joel Katzowitz
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Posts: 325
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-31-2009 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joel Katzowitz   Click Here to Email Joel Katzowitz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "fantasy Patch", can someone enlighten me?

I designed the unofficial STS-69 (Dog Crew II) and STS-88 (Dog Crew III) patches at the request of the respective crews. I worked with Ken Havekotte on those projects. Would those be considered "fantasy Patches"?

Please excuse my ignorance, I'm not much of a patch collector although I do have some. Because of the Dog Crew experience, most of my patches tend toward the humorous, like the STS-70 Woody Woodpecker.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 27327
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-31-2009 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fantasy patches are like the Apollo 18, 19 and 20 crew patches: while some elements were borrowed stolen from sketches created by Robert McCall, they have no connection with history.

They were the fantasy of the artist, which (other than the copyright infringement) wouldn't have been such a bad thing had it not been for the way that they were marketed ("rare" and "original" were among the words used to describe them on eBay).

The Dog Crew and Woody Woodpecker patches had a direct connection with the crew. The problem associated with them are distinguishing the originals from the knock-offs replicas produced years later.

Bill Hunt
Member

Posts: 378
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 05-31-2009 04:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hunt   Click Here to Email Bill Hunt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Exactly. Hey Joel... since you're here, what do the original Dog Crew and Woody patches look like front and back, so collectors here can tell them from knock offs? Do you have pictures?

Joel Katzowitz
Member

Posts: 325
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-01-2009 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joel Katzowitz   Click Here to Email Joel Katzowitz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't currently have a way to host my images. But this link will get you to a page where you can find the patches along with a little historical background.

Thanks to Jacques and Erik for keeping these patches alive.

Joel Katzowitz
Member

Posts: 325
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-01-2009 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joel Katzowitz   Click Here to Email Joel Katzowitz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, and hopefully Ken can confirm this, I believe the run of Dog Crew II patches was about 1000 and Dog Crew III about 500.

I still see them on ebay occasionally going for 5 or 6 bucks. Hardly worth trying to knock these off. I still have a few tucked away under my mattress which I'll consider selling when the demand raises the price closer to $100 each.

hoorenz
Member

Posts: 733
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 06-02-2009 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hoorenz   Click Here to Email hoorenz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Never seen knock offs of those. The 3 inch woodpecker patches that showed up on eBay lately, were the real thing. They did not have anything to do with the crew though. They were made up by a JSC television technician called Andrew Paris. He showed the patches to the crew after the flight - it was only then that the crew stated that if they had known before the flight that the patches existed, they would have used them (like the Dog Crew patches). The Woodpecker was produced and sold by Randy Wagner of Eagle One Aerospace, in Virginia. Same for the STS-67 Rastro, which was done by Wagner and artwork was delivered by Paris and his co-worker Lisa Vargas. Next, Randy Hunt came with an STS-73 Cat Crew (STS-3 patch with a tiger). It was one of the first times I started doubting his judgements: Spaceref had made up that logo in a couple of minutes just to be funny. Hunt believed it was serious. Joel could shed some light on this Cat Crew topic.

ddrwilli
Member

Posts: 26
From: Pataskala, Ohio
Registered: Nov 2005

posted 07-25-2009 06:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ddrwilli   Click Here to Email ddrwilli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I purchased a set of the 61F and 61G patches from Randy Hunt about 9 years ago. With their unusual white backing, they didn't seem like his usual work so I didn't think, at the time, that Randy had any part in producing them. Also, at the time, I was told that there were only 50 made of each. Was that true?

hoorenz
Member

Posts: 733
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 07-25-2009 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hoorenz   Click Here to Email hoorenz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Even though they had an unusual white backing, they were Randy Hunt's product. Maybe the number of colors forced him to a different supplier. I can not remember what the reason was. He also told me that only 50 were produced. I do believe that, because if he had made more, he would have continued selling them himself.

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