Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

Websites
related space history websites

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Patches & Pins
  Lion Brothers space shuttle mission patches (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Lion Brothers space shuttle mission patches
spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-08-2006 03:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Hunt:
Although I have to say, looking at those patches on the site, I think some are Lion but I suspect there are other manufacturers in there as well.
Bill, Please mail me your comments on the proposed patches and I will post them on the list.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-14-2006 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have now updated the list.

It now has three columns - possible Lion Brothers candidates, AB Emblem versions, and now Eagle Crest versions.

The reason for adding Eagle Crest is that it's become clear that many of our possible LB patches are actually vintage Eagle Crest designs.

The style of the backings on their patches and the overall quality (on their patches produced at the time of the missions) seemed to match that of Lion Brothers which is why so many of these patches were proposed but it looks like we need to go back to square one for patches beyond STS-51G.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-21-2006 03:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's been brought to my attention that some people are trying to sell examples of patches shown on the list as 'Possible Lion Brothers' versions for something like $80 a piece, declaring them to be 'rare Lion Brothers patches'.

Let's be very clear here that only those patches marked as "Known Lion Brothers" were definitely produced by the company (even then this only the opinion of myself and other contributors to the list). All others shown in the "Possible ion Brothers" column are just that - possibilities. The more likey ones are clearly marked as Probable, others may be classed as Suspected, Possible or Disputed.

If you sell any of these other patches as "Lion Brothers" without qualification then you are misrepresenting them. Also, if you buy any of these patches in the hope that they might be Lion Brothers versions then bear in mind when you do so that they may well turn out to have been manufactured by someone else.

Already it's become clear, as noted on the list site, that many (if not all) of the later patch designs in the Possible LB column are more likely to have been made by Eagle Crest. This includes the examples being peddled for $80 each.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-21-2006 03:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Getting back to the real purpose of the thread...

One of the best-known distributors of Lion Brothers patches throughout the Apollo era was the National Air & Space Museum at Washington. I've seen plenty of examples of Apollo era Lion Brothers patches mounted on NASM cards. I also have a Lion Brothers Shuttle Program patch on an NASM card so we know that there was at least some overlap into the Shuttle era.

Has anyone seen any LB shuttle mission patches mounted on NASM cards? If we knew at which mission Lion Brothers stopped supplying patches to the NASM then we might be able to eliminate later NASM mounted patch designs as most likely produced by someone else.

What made me think of this was the Jarvis-Walker STS-41D NASM card mounted patch that appeared on eBay a while back. We know that this patch was only produced and released at a very specific time. If this patch was produced by AB Emblem then we can assume that at the time of the planned launch of that mission LB were no longer supplying patches to the NASM.

This would imply that any NASM card mounted patches from the flown STS-41D mission onwards can be assumed to have been supplied by AB Emblem or another supplier.

As a concrete example I have an STS-51F one piece patch on an NASM card. The patch appears to be the design we have listed in the Possible LB column in the list, but if LB were no longer supplying patches to the NASM in 1985 we can rule it out as an LB design.

If anyone has any examples of known/likely LB designs on NASM cards maybe we can narrow down the cut-off point.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-29-2006 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not sure if I'm just talking to myself here... but anyway I noticed something else that I would like other people's opinions on.

Regarding the patch designs produced by Eagle Crest, it seems to me from what I've seen that their designs are identical to those of Swissartex.

Am I just imagining this, or did one manufacturer actually produce patches for the other? Certainly the early cards for Eagle Crest patches say "Swiss Made" so maybe Eagle Crest were actually reselling patches made by Swiss Artex.

Is this possible?

dmash4077
Member

Posts: 64
From: Prattville Al
Registered: May 2006

posted 12-29-2006 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dmash4077   Click Here to Email dmash4077     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good question, are you referring to Apollo patches?

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-30-2006 02:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, Shuttle patches.

For example, the distinctive STS-8 design shown on the EagleCrest website seems identical to the Swissartex patch (as seen packaged and labelled).

The STS-51D that was part of the recently-sold batch mounted on an Eagle Crest card has the same borders and the same curved ridges in the landmasses as the packaged and labelled Swissartex versions I've seen.

The same holds true for other patch designs either in that card mounted batch that was on eBay recently or as seen on the EC website. Compare each to known labelled Swissartex patches (e.g. from KSC) and they seem to be the same.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 01-02-2007 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've updated the list pages again, this time to move the various patches that were in the LB column but presumed more likely to be Swissartex or Eagle Crest into the correct column.

That leaves only a few odds and ends in the first column, and nothing after STS-51C that we think likely to be LB at present.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 01-15-2007 03:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another little piece of the puzzle: I found a Lion Brothers Shuttle Program patch that has a vacuum-sealed plastic backing, like those of STS-41B/D/G and 51A/C.

Previously the only examples I'd seen have had the plastic backings with a square grid of small dimples, like that seen on the coated versions of STS-1, and on STS-5/6/7/8 and 41C.

Has anyone seen a bare-back STS Program patch? It seems likely that one should exist.

Harald Kraenzel
Member

Posts: 284
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005

posted 01-15-2007 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was not aware that this was in question.

I also have a STS program patch with a different thin plastic back and I have a bare back one. If I remember correctly Ron (spacesoup patches) does have one also.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 01-15-2007 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Harald. That means we have STS Program patches covering all three coating types, proving that they continued to produce them during all three phases.

I've updated the list page with a summary of the backing types. Hit reload if you don't see it.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 04-03-2007 03:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just thought I'd bring this thread back to life... My understanding at the moment it that everyone is pretty-much agreed on our LB shuttle patches through to STS-51C.

Where we seem to be stuck is STS-51D/E. I've yet to see a likely candidate for an LB version of either of these patches, although it seems likely that they produced a run of patch bodies for STS-41E/F that could potentially have been re-used for STS-51D with an added tab.

Does anyone have likely candidates for these patches? Can we assume that STS-51C was the last Lion Brothers shuttle patch produced?

dmash4077
Member

Posts: 64
From: Prattville Al
Registered: May 2006

posted 04-04-2007 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dmash4077   Click Here to Email dmash4077     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chris, I think from all we have uncovered and discovered, that 51C or 51A is most likely where Lion stopped production of the Shuttle mission patches. I sure wish the guy I had contact with, that used to work at Lion Brothers for 30 yrs had some information as to the last mission patch produced, but that bombed out.

I do think however, that there may be a possibility of a few very rare STS-7 and STS-8 bare backed patches out there, just from what Eli has told me. He never remembered a coating on his that he had. Seems like there would be, since STS-5 and 6 have both versions, you don't see the bare backed version of those around hardly ever either.

Someday, may be one of us will have a reliable source that can tell us for sure? That's just my thoughts.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 2649
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 04-11-2007 06:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With apologies to those of you that were watching these and hoping no-one else had seen them... there are currently a complete set of Lion Brothers Shuttle mission patches being sold on eBay.

This set contains the plastic-backed versions of STS-1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 41-C, confirming once again that these designs are Lion Brothers.

It also ends with the design of STS-51C that most people consider to be LB, and the content of the set lends weight to the theory that STS-51C was their last patch.

I talked to the seller when these first appeared to warn them not to be tricked into selling direct to the usual sneaky gits who try this trick. Sadly, but not surprisingly, they have received many such offers.


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 1999-2012 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement