Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-09-2015 01:07 PM
The largest amateur rocket ever built, a 1:1 scale replica of Wernher von Braun's V-2 missile, will attempt its first flight next weekend (March 14-15) at the Thunda Down Under rocketry meet in Australia, Make magazine reports.
This impressive-looking 1:1 scale replica of a V2 was created by the "rocket junkies" at the Rocketry Victoria club. The team has been building up to this launch, first flying a 1:10 scale V2, then a 1:4, each time experimenting with lightweight body construction and other innovations. For the 1:1 vehicle, they settled on a radical aluminum frame skinned in shaped foam panels. This is the first time this construction technique has been used on a large scale rocket and the group hopes the lightweight, but sturdy design will launch their baby into the record books. The rocket will be powered by a single Cesaroni O motor with 25,000 Newtons of thrust (similar to a Sidewinder missile).
Jurg Bolli Member
Posts: 977 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Nov 2000
posted 03-09-2015 01:23 PM
That is one helluva big rocket!
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-09-2015 01:36 PM
I'm sure it will make Vern Estes blush with pride!
AussiePete Member
Posts: 104 From: Adelaide, South Australia Registered: Jan 2014
posted 03-10-2015 06:53 AM
The things you discover in your own backyard.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-10-2015 12:13 PM
Can it reach London?
p51 Member
Posts: 1642 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
posted 03-10-2015 05:13 PM
I bet the WW2 re-enacting groups in the area (yes, there are some) won't be able to help getting selfies in WW2 uniform with that taking off in the background.
quote:Originally posted by datkatz: Can it reach London?
Or Antwerp? They used more of these trying to disable allied ports after the invasion than they did hitting London, but the history books seem to side-step that fact.
I wonder what markings they'll use, German test, German service or US postwar test paint jobs?
E2M Lem Man Member
Posts: 846 From: Los Angeles CA. USA Registered: Jan 2005
posted 03-11-2015 05:24 PM
Don't forget the French bunkers for launches to England!
I noticed that they are suspending it with the world's largest Bungee cord...
p51 Member
Posts: 1642 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
posted 03-11-2015 07:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by E2M Lem Man: Don't forget the French bunkers for launches to England!
Many of them were launched from mobile launchers, as fixed launch sites were folly by then. The allies had air supremacy along the coast for the most part by 1943. Several missiles were attacked by tactical fighters in the open in transit, and several sites were straffed.
Usually, they didn't hang around longer than an hour or two to set up the launcher, get the missile ready, launch, then break it down before the 'Amis' came a'calling from above...
I recall reading of a situation where some P-51s 'bounced' a train loaded with V2 rockets, completed with warheads (over 2000 pounds of amatol, each) and there was nothing left but a giant smoking crater afterward. One Mustang was vaporized and another blasted into fragments. Couldn't find anything online to link that to, though.
OV3Discovery Member
Posts: 100 From: Registered: Mar 2015
posted 03-12-2015 03:54 AM
That is one great looking scale replica. Good luck, cannot wait to see it once completed.
AussiePete Member
Posts: 104 From: Adelaide, South Australia Registered: Jan 2014
posted 03-12-2015 11:33 PM
Watched a documentary on the V2 recently, said it was one of the most expensive wastes of money of the Third Reich. Of all that hit London, the average death toll was three people.
Thanks Adolf for developing the future of rocketry. But you were the weakest link in losing the war, har har.
David C Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
posted 03-13-2015 05:13 AM
quote:Originally posted by AussiePete: one of the most expensive wastes of money of the Third Reich. Of all that hit London, the average death toll was three people.
But "terror weapons" aren't just about a body count - as can be seen clearly today.
Joel Katzowitz Member
Posts: 808 From: Marietta GA USA Registered: Dec 1999
posted 03-13-2015 08:25 AM
Another interesting and horrifying fact is that each operational V2 that rolled off the assembly line came with an average cost of 6 human lives. That's twice the number of people killed by the explosions.
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-13-2015 10:20 AM
Yes, very true, the cost to build it was a terror in its own right. The conditions at Dora and other work camps used in building the rockets should never be forgotten - notwithstanding the contributions of Germans like Arthur Rudolph to post-war NASA rocketry.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-13-2015 01:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by onesmallstep: Yes, very true, the cost to build it was a terror in its own right.
A "terror" for whom? Certainly not the Germans.
Operation Paperclip was a devil's bargain, and will remain a permanent stain on the US space program.
AussiePete Member
Posts: 104 From: Adelaide, South Australia Registered: Jan 2014
posted 03-13-2015 04:07 PM
Operation Paperclip: Can argue that was the lesser of two evils. Imagine had only Russia had gained all these people? World would be very different today.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-13-2015 05:16 PM
Really? They beat us to heavy-lift boosters. Their early engine designs were so good that they're still being used, and we're still buying their later designs. And all without Nazis.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-13-2015 05:33 PM
Not exactly true. From a 2003 article in Air & Space magazine:
Historians, however, disagree about the impact of German rocket scientists on the Soviet program. "In reality, the Germans did not build anything for the Russians, did not 'supervise' the firings, and did not introduce innovations," wrote German-born rocket historian (and von Braun colleague) Willy Ley in 1968. Nearly three decades later, Boris Chertok echoed the opinion in his memoirs. The R-7, the Soviets' first ICBM and the vehicle that launched Sputnik, bore no German "birth marks," he wrote.
However, Olaf Przybilski, an historian at the Technical University of Dresden, disagrees. His analysis, published in Germany in 1997, points out a striking resemblance between a cone-like aerodynamic shape the Gröttrup team had proposed for several rockets and the conical shape of Korolev's largest designs — the R-7 and the ill-fated N1 moon rocket.
The truth lies somewhere in between. Germans did not design the Sputnik or its rocket, but the ideas developed by Gröttrup's team on Gorodomlya did influence Soviet designers and accelerate their efforts. On her last day on Gorodomlya Island, Irmgard Gröttrup wrote in her diary: "Once more we had a meal with our friends, draining glass after glass and taking stock of the past years. We came to the conclusion that they had not been wasted, as we had so often believed. The men agreed that... the long-range rocket has made the conquest of space a definite possibility in the foreseeable future."
Also, there is no telling what shape the Soviet Union's program would have taken if it had had the benefit of von Braun and his team.
And without Operation Paperclip, there is equally no telling if the U.S. might have been able to answer a Soviet challenge as quickly, or at all.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-13-2015 10:23 PM
Having German designs influence your designs is not quite the same thing as giving Nazi war criminals citizenship.
And, of course, the Nazi designs were heavily influenced by Goddard's designs.
To me, Robert, it's as simple as this: Whatever the Nazis contributed to our space program (and, by the way, for the life of me, I can't see what von Braun ever contributed), it wasn't worth the price we paid.
It's a stain.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-13-2015 10:37 PM
History is rarely black and white. If you are interested in learning more about the role that von Braun played and his conflicted history, then I suggest reading Von Braun: Dreamer of Space, Engineer of War by Michael Neufeld.
If nothing else, von Braun played a leading role on selling the American public on going to the moon. His work with Collier's and Disney was particularly influential. But his contributions to the U.S. space program extend well beyond that.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-13-2015 11:41 PM
I read it. What a major contribution! Are you seriously going to tell me that it was worth giving a war criminal citizenship, star status, AND a complete whitewashing of his history (while he was alive) for the Colliers articles and the Disney series? Nothing that Robert Heinlein, Arthur Clarke, and any number of authors couldn't have done. (And done without being responsible for a never-to-be known number of Dora prisoner deaths.)
Not to mention that there was nothing in either the articles or the series (besides perhaps the notion of a satellite, which WvB certainly did not originate) that turned out to be even remotely the way things were done. He was wrong about just about everything.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-13-2015 11:46 PM
I'm not going to debate you. You are welcome to your opinion.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-13-2015 11:52 PM
I'm not trying to debate you, Robert. There's no point. I'm asking you, directly, to answer one very simple, unambiguous question. To wit: Name one solid technical contribution to the US space program made by von Braun.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-13-2015 11:57 PM
I'll quote Roger Launius (former NASA chief historian) in his review of Neufeld's book (which he describes as a "seminal addition to the literature of space history and biography"):
Neufeld argues that von Braun should be remembered for four major accomplishments:
Developing the world's first ballistic missile, the V-2, for Germany during World War II.
Popularizing space exploration in the U.S. in the 1950s through a succession of articles, speeches, public appearances, and television broadcasts. The most important of these were the famed "Collier's" series of articles and the three Disney TV programs.
Launching the first U.S. satellite to orbit the Earth, Explorer 1, in January 1958, a significant rejoinder to the Sputnik launches of the fall of 1957.
Leading the technical development of the largest successful rocket ever built, the Saturn V launcher that took the Apollo astronauts to the Moon in the 1960s and 1970s.
You may disagree with Neufeld, which is fine, but until you've put the same amount of scholarly research into the topic as he did, I will defer to him.
datkatz Member
Posts: 176 From: New York, NY Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-14-2015 12:07 AM
You certainly may defer to him, but, once again — as with every answer to my simple question I've ever seen — his answers are vague, ambiguous, and exaggerated.
What, if any, were his technical contributions to the V-2 project? What, if any, were his technical contributions to the Redstone project? Or to the solid-fuel upper stages of the Redstone/Juno? In what way was he "responsible for the launch of Explorer-I" — besides telling the government that the Redstone Arsenal could do it?
It seems that, at best, all he was was a top-level executive, who did nothing that any other competent engineering executive could not have done — he managed projects at the highest level, and, as we all know, management at the top-level is nothing but a sinecure. Sure is tough reading all those executive summaries.
Nobody could have replaced Goddard, every single engineering design decision was his. Any competent (charismatic — I'll give him that) manager could have replaced von Braun, and all outcomes would have been unchanged.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-14-2015 12:13 AM
As I said, not going to debate. You have your opinion of him, I have mine, Neufeld has his.
Regardless of what von Braun did or did not do, I'm looking forward to seeing how high Rocketry Victoria's V-2 flies this weekend.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-14-2015 12:25 AM
And no sooner did I mention the rocket launch did Rocketry Victoria post an update:
We have lift off!!! THE FLIGHT HAS BEEN A SUCCESS!
Video and pictures to come later! Time to celebrate!
Here's a pre-launch photo:
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-14-2015 08:09 AM
From Rocketry Victoria:
You've been asking for it and here is a picture of what we did today! Better pictures to follow when we return to civilization!
Jurg Bolli Member
Posts: 977 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Nov 2000
posted 03-14-2015 10:21 AM
The model is spectacular, I cannot wait to see a video of it going up!
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-15-2015 09:03 AM
Nice flight by the rocket down under. I think it's these events that spur a healthy debate about the history of rocketry, like many inventions a piece of hardware forged in war.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42982 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-15-2015 10:15 AM
Here's a video of the launch. It didn't go very high, but it flew!