posted July 16, 2003 06:30 PM               

So, first I thought... rank the missions themselves by valuations...

A11
A13
A8
A17
A16
A15
A12
A14
A10
A9
A7

American flags (AF) always seem to bring top dollar. Patches in the middle. State flags (SF) on the bottom. Let's assume these all are lunar orbit and not surface items.

So...

A11 AF
A11 patch
A11 SF
A13 AF
A13 patch
A13 SF
A8 AF
A8 patch
A8 SF
A17 AF
A17 patch
A17 SF
A16 AF
A16 patch
A16 SF
A15 AF
A15 patch
A15 SF
A12 AF
A12 patch
A12 SF
A14 AF
A14 patch
A14 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A10 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A9 SF
A7 AF
A7 patch
A7 SF

Nooooo... That doesn't look right I can see this is not going to be easy...

How about...

A11 AF
A11 patch
A13 AF
A8 AF
A13 patch
A8 patch
A17 AF
A17 patch
A16 AF
A16 patch
A15 AF
A15 patch
A12 AF
A12 patch
A14 AF
A14 patch
A11 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A13 SF
A8 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A7 AF
A7 patch
A17 SF
A16 SF
A15 SF
A12 SF
A14 SF
A10 SF
A9 SF
A7 SF

Well... that looks better. Now to add in the lunar surface items which would include ... perhaps in this order...

A11 AF (lunar surface)
A11 patch (lunar surface)
A17 AF (lunar surface)
A17 patch (lunar surface)
A16 AF (lunar surface)
A16 patch (lunar surface)
A15 AF (lunar surface)
A15 patch (lunar surface)
A12 AF (lunar surface)
A12 patch (lunar surface)
A14 AF (lunar surface)
A14 patch (lunar surface)
A11 SF (lunar surface)
A17 SF (lunar surface)
A16 SF (lunar surface)
A15 SF (lunar surface)
A12 SF (lunar surface)
A14 SF (lunar surface)

Ok, so now to blend the lunar surface items in with the others...

A11 AF (lunar surface)
A11 patch (lunar surface)
A11 AF
A11 patch
A17 AF (lunar surface)
A17 patch (lunar surface)
A13 AF
A8 AF
A16 AF (lunar surface)
A16 patch (lunar surface)
A13 patch
A8 patch
A15 AF (lunar surface)
A15 patch (lunar surface)
A12 AF (lunar surface)
A12 patch (lunar surface)
A17 AF
A17 patch
A14 AF (lunar surface)
A14 patch (lunar surface)
A16 AF
A16 patch
A15 AF
A15 patch
A12 AF
A12 patch
A14 AF
A14 patch
A11 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A13 SF
A8 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A7 AF
A7 patch
A11 SF (lunar surface)
A17 SF (lunar surface)
A16 SF (lunar surface)
A15 SF (lunar surface)
A12 SF (lunar surface)
A14 SF (lunar surface)
A17 SF
A16 SF
A15 SF
A12 SF
A14 SF
A10 SF
A9 SF
A7 SF

OK!! What do you think? Anybody care to refine this list?

Noah

posted July 16, 2003 06:44 PM               

Very interesting post.

I would say in general, I think you are underevaluating the lunar surface state flags, especially from missions Apollo 11 and Apollo 17.

One thing your chart should take into consideration is the overall pecking order when it comes to where an object has traveled on a U.S. mission. In general, the following applies (from most valued to least):

Lunar surface exposed
Lunar surface carried (outside the LM)
Lunar surface landed
Lunar orbit
Sub-orbital trajectory (specifically, MR3 and MR4)
Earth orbit on Apollo
Earth orbit on Mercury
Earth orbit on Gemini
Earth orbit on Skylab
Earth orbit on Shuttle/ISS

So here is my take on your final list:

posted July 17, 2003 09:07 AM               

LOL! maybe so... but in this case I believe it was just too much coffee!

Thanks for your updated list. It is very interesting to look through the list and see how much it bounces around...

posted July 17, 2003 10:18 AM               

You asked about the sewn patches vs beta patches. I believe there were less sewn patches taken on missions.

I have seen stacks of beta patches in cleanroom sealed plastic bags. Due to the thickness of the sewn items including flags, there aren't as many. I just don't know how many.

I do like the beta patches over the sewn pieces because the astronauts can write on them and specifically state that the item has flown. Another reason is due to the fact that beta cloth had such an important role in the missions.

------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo

posted July 17, 2003 11:44 AM               

This is a difficult (but interesting) thread because so much of it will be subjective to the collector. For example, I might imagine that Wayne values his flown A12 Texas state flag just as much or more than he would if it were the Stars and Stripes. Charlie Duke took along North and South Carolina state flags because he is from that part of the country - having one of those carries a special value in my opinion.

Generally speaking however, I agree with Robert. I think that the state flags deserve a bit more in terms of valuation in the list. I would also include the Robbins Medallions toward the top of any flown category - they are attactive and have a well established history in most cases. Though I'm not sure of exactly where they were flown - perhaps not in the PPKs?

posted July 17, 2003 04:50 PM               

"I have seen stacks of beta patches in cleanroom sealed plastic bags. Due to the thickness of the sewn items including flags, there aren't as many. I just don't know how many."

Where did you see these?

..................................

I agree that many of the beta cloth patches are preferable as they can be signed and are very attractive. But, in my opinion, some patches are more attractive as sewn patches than they are in beta cloth, Apollo 8 comes to mind. And the sewn patches must be a rarity in comparison. How many flown, sewn, Apollo 17 patches have you seen? So, maybe sometimes beta patches are more valuable, and sometimes sewn patches are more valuable, depending on which mission they are?

I would imagine that Apollo 13 patches are the most variable in value as their demand is more connected with the general population than is the case with other items. The opposite being true for Apollo 8 which has a great deal of respect among "those in the know".

I for one am a big fan of flown flags, but it does seem that after one has collected one or two American flags that you would seek unique items making the patches a more desirable collectable among "seasoned collectors" than more American flags.

Noah

posted July 17, 2003 08:18 PM               

I sent Alan Shepard a little plastic Mercury space capsule/pencil sharpener with the sparpener removed and cramed it with an American flag and some other stuff and asked if he would fly it on A14....but, of course, I got it back with a letter of regrets !

I think flags and patches are the most frequent things flown.....Jim Weatherbee, a Notre Dame grad, flew a REALLY old medal for ND from the professor here who the wind tunnel building is named after (???) but I sure cannot remember his name....ZAHM ????

posted July 17, 2003 11:19 PM               

I have seen the betas in various places where the astronauts have brought them (like the autograph shows).

Now as for flown flags, I am partial to US flags. I like our country's flag it's pretty and I like the colors. I have ten flown flags in my collections only two are not US flags.

And astronauts did fly personal items in their PPK's. Aldrin brought a communion kit with him in his lunar surface PPK. It's those personal items that make this hobby interesting.

posted August 14, 2005 07:46 PM               

Because this post is of some age, would anyone care to add their thoughts on if the "order" of hobby preference has changed?

I would love some of the more experienced collectors/dealers to add their 2 cents to the above ranked-list.

posted August 16, 2005 10:08 PM               

My 2 cents...

#1- I think all lunar flags now need to get bumped up a few notches.

#2- I think I would value the A8 items more then A13 items.

posted August 17, 2005 03:21 AM               

There are still many Apollo astronauts whose personal mementoes haven't reached the market in any numbers yet - Young, Mattingly, Schmitt, Armstrong, Anders, Schweickart, McDivitt etc. We all like to joke about Buzz and the U-Haul behind the CM, but in fairness there's been a plentiful supply of lunar items from Cernan, Scott and Duke in recent years.

Not to mention all the things NASA gave away over the years. Well into the 1980s some guys were still being given lunar flown flags as a retirement present. Maybe they still are? This stuff is rare, certainly - just not as rare as we like to tell ourselves.

Oh and for the record, my top item would be a piece of lunar flown spacesuit, A11 first, then any mission.

Cheers,
Matt

posted August 17, 2005 07:44 AM               

Sure, there is plenty of room for debate about "this item should be here" in the list. It was true then and now.

With regard to Apollo 17 flags... we've all seen a lot of items from Gene Cernan's personal collection come up for sale... but I don't recall him selling a single flag nor do I recall seeing one ever sell from Harrison Schmitt.

There is no doubt of the significance of Apollo 8, an incredible mission of historic importance rivaling Apollo 11. But to the average Joe on the street, Apollo 13 outshines it. Go down to KSC and visit the gift shop... Apollo 11 and 13 items outnumber everything else combined. If you want to buy a space collectable with the greatest chance of it increasing in value, then seek something that will be desired by people outside of the collecting community... A11 and A13.

And yes, there are quite a few of these PPK items "out there" (there a thousands of times as many A11 signed crew photos), but like A11 photos they are still rare, that is there are not as many of them as there are folks that would like to have them. These PPK items are just tremendous when framed and properly presented. There are many lawyers, doctors, and executives who would love to have one of these beauties hanging on their office wall.

I believe we will see an ever escalating increase in the price of these PPK items. The recent Astronaut Scholarship Auction brought all time high hammer bids and I think that the Fall Aurora auction will realize the same. I'll be very interested to see what the final sale figures will be at the current Mastronet sale.

Noah

posted August 17, 2005 08:23 AM               

I wonder how many they have left now?

Cheers,
Matt

posted August 21, 2005 05:53 AM               

Apollo 17 Space Flown Flag Signed by Gene Cernan and Christopher Craft

David H. Greenshields Apollo XVII Flag Flown To Moon

Cheers,
Matt

------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com

posted August 21, 2005 08:28 PM               

I have a question...Are flags such as these from Apollo missions flown in any particular astronauts PPK? I assume these are agency presentations (similar to the vintage flown flags attached to the 'white/cream' colored certificates) and not given out by any particular member of the crew.

Did NASA as an organization have their own PPK of flags etc to give personnel or were these pieces included in a crew members PPK?

posted August 21, 2005 08:55 PM               

For more details, see:

posted August 22, 2005 03:18 AM               

So not one of those nice NASA certificates is a lunar surface flag?

Cheers,
Matt