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Author Topic:   Three most common PPK items
mensax
Member

Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-16-2003 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe the three most common PPK items that were flown during the Apollo missions were American flags, State flags (including foriegn countries), and mission patches. I was wondering how these items would rank in value taking into consideration the mission they were flown on. I'd be interested in everyone's opinion.

So, first I thought... rank the missions themselves by valuations...

A11
A13
A8
A17
A16
A15
A12
A14
A10
A9
A7

American flags (AF) always seem to bring top dollar. Patches in the middle. State flags (SF) on the bottom. Let's assume these all are lunar orbit and not surface items.

So...

A11 AF
A11 patch
A11 SF
A13 AF
A13 patch
A13 SF
A8 AF
A8 patch
A8 SF
A17 AF
A17 patch
A17 SF
A16 AF
A16 patch
A16 SF
A15 AF
A15 patch
A15 SF
A12 AF
A12 patch
A12 SF
A14 AF
A14 patch
A14 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A10 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A9 SF
A7 AF
A7 patch
A7 SF

Nooooo... That doesn't look right I can see this is not going to be easy...

How about...

A11 AF
A11 patch
A13 AF
A8 AF
A13 patch
A8 patch
A17 AF
A17 patch
A16 AF
A16 patch
A15 AF
A15 patch
A12 AF
A12 patch
A14 AF
A14 patch
A11 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A13 SF
A8 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A7 AF
A7 patch
A17 SF
A16 SF
A15 SF
A12 SF
A14 SF
A10 SF
A9 SF
A7 SF

Well... that looks better. Now to add in the lunar surface items which would include ... perhaps in this order...

A11 AF (lunar surface)
A11 patch (lunar surface)
A17 AF (lunar surface)
A17 patch (lunar surface)
A16 AF (lunar surface)
A16 patch (lunar surface)
A15 AF (lunar surface)
A15 patch (lunar surface)
A12 AF (lunar surface)
A12 patch (lunar surface)
A14 AF (lunar surface)
A14 patch (lunar surface)
A11 SF (lunar surface)
A17 SF (lunar surface)
A16 SF (lunar surface)
A15 SF (lunar surface)
A12 SF (lunar surface)
A14 SF (lunar surface)

Ok, so now to blend the lunar surface items in with the others...

A11 AF (lunar surface)
A11 patch (lunar surface)
A11 AF
A11 patch
A17 AF (lunar surface)
A17 patch (lunar surface)
A13 AF
A8 AF
A16 AF (lunar surface)
A16 patch (lunar surface)
A13 patch
A8 patch
A15 AF (lunar surface)
A15 patch (lunar surface)
A12 AF (lunar surface)
A12 patch (lunar surface)
A17 AF
A17 patch
A14 AF (lunar surface)
A14 patch (lunar surface)
A16 AF
A16 patch
A15 AF
A15 patch
A12 AF
A12 patch
A14 AF
A14 patch
A11 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A13 SF
A8 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A7 AF
A7 patch
A11 SF (lunar surface)
A17 SF (lunar surface)
A16 SF (lunar surface)
A15 SF (lunar surface)
A12 SF (lunar surface)
A14 SF (lunar surface)
A17 SF
A16 SF
A15 SF
A12 SF
A14 SF
A10 SF
A9 SF
A7 SF

OK!! What do you think? Anybody care to refine this list?

Noah

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 29337
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 07-16-2003 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All I can say Noah, is that you must have a lot of extra time on your hands

Very interesting post.

I would say in general, I think you are underevaluating the lunar surface state flags, especially from missions Apollo 11 and Apollo 17.

One thing your chart should take into consideration is the overall pecking order when it comes to where an object has traveled on a U.S. mission. In general, the following applies (from most valued to least):

Lunar surface exposed
Lunar surface carried (outside the LM)
Lunar surface landed
Lunar orbit
Sub-orbital trajectory (specifically, MR3 and MR4)
Earth orbit on Apollo
Earth orbit on Mercury
Earth orbit on Gemini
Earth orbit on Skylab
Earth orbit on Shuttle/ISS

So here is my take on your final list:

A11 AF (lunar surface)
A11 patch (lunar surface)
A11 AF
A11 patch
A17 AF (lunar surface)
A17 patch (lunar surface)
A11 SF (lunar surface)
A16 AF (lunar surface)
A13 AF
A8 AF
A16 patch (lunar surface)
A13 patch
A8 patch
A15 AF (lunar surface)
A15 patch (lunar surface)
A12 AF (lunar surface)
A12 patch (lunar surface)
A17 AF
A17 patch
A17 SF (lunar surface)
A14 AF (lunar surface)
A14 patch (lunar surface)
A16 SF (lunar surface)
A15 SF (lunar surface)
A12 SF (lunar surface)
A14 SF (lunar surface)
A16 AF
A16 patch
A15 AF
A15 patch
A12 AF
A12 patch
A14 AF
A14 patch
A11 SF
A10 AF
A10 patch
A13 SF
A8 SF
A9 AF
A9 patch
A7 AF
A7 patch
A17 SF
A16 SF
A15 SF
A12 SF
A14 SF
A10 SF
A9 SF
A7 SF

mensax
Member

Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-17-2003 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"All I can say Noah, is that you must have a lot of extra time on your hands"

LOL! maybe so... but in this case I believe it was just too much coffee!

Thanks for your updated list. It is very interesting to look through the list and see how much it bounces around...

What do think about sewn patches versus beta patches? Were there equal quantities flown... is one more valued than the other?

Larry McGlynn
Member

Posts: 818
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 07-17-2003 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Noah

You asked about the sewn patches vs beta patches. I believe there were less sewn patches taken on missions.

I have seen stacks of beta patches in cleanroom sealed plastic bags. Due to the thickness of the sewn items including flags, there aren't as many. I just don't know how many.

I do like the beta patches over the sewn pieces because the astronauts can write on them and specifically state that the item has flown. Another reason is due to the fact that beta cloth had such an important role in the missions.

------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo

[This message has been edited by Larry McGlynn (edited July 17, 2003).]

Scott
Member

Posts: 3296
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 07-17-2003 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also remember that anything with lunar dust or soil adhering to it increases its value exponentially compared to a similar item which may have been stowed inside an always sealed container or pouch for the duration of the voyage.
Lunar surface items which were used outside the LM are not the only items which may possess lunar material. As Charlie Duke has pointed out, the astronauts tracked lots of dust into the LM after their EVAs, and upon Lunar Orbital Insertion (following ascent) when the gravity was once again zero, all the dust on the floor of the LM floated up all around the cabin and stuck to just about everything, and stayed permanently on things with nooks and crannies (like fabrics) or exposed adhesives.
Scott

NC Apollo Fan
Member

Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 07-17-2003 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NC Apollo Fan   Click Here to Email NC Apollo Fan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would place a higher premium on the beta patches (as opposed to sewn patches). To me they are more attractive and, being beta, they were important to the program. As Larry has also noted, they are easier to inscribe.

This is a difficult (but interesting) thread because so much of it will be subjective to the collector. For example, I might imagine that Wayne values his flown A12 Texas state flag just as much or more than he would if it were the Stars and Stripes. Charlie Duke took along North and South Carolina state flags because he is from that part of the country - having one of those carries a special value in my opinion.

Generally speaking however, I agree with Robert. I think that the state flags deserve a bit more in terms of valuation in the list. I would also include the Robbins Medallions toward the top of any flown category - they are attactive and have a well established history in most cases. Though I'm not sure of exactly where they were flown - perhaps not in the PPKs?

Jonathan

mensax
Member

Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-17-2003 04:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Larry, you've got to tell me more!...

"I have seen stacks of beta patches in cleanroom sealed plastic bags. Due to the thickness of the sewn items including flags, there aren't as many. I just don't know how many."

Where did you see these?

..................................

I agree that many of the beta cloth patches are preferable as they can be signed and are very attractive. But, in my opinion, some patches are more attractive as sewn patches than they are in beta cloth, Apollo 8 comes to mind. And the sewn patches must be a rarity in comparison. How many flown, sewn, Apollo 17 patches have you seen? So, maybe sometimes beta patches are more valuable, and sometimes sewn patches are more valuable, depending on which mission they are?

I would imagine that Apollo 13 patches are the most variable in value as their demand is more connected with the general population than is the case with other items. The opposite being true for Apollo 8 which has a great deal of respect among "those in the know".

I for one am a big fan of flown flags, but it does seem that after one has collected one or two American flags that you would seek unique items making the patches a more desirable collectable among "seasoned collectors" than more American flags.

Noah


spaceman1953
Member

Posts: 941
From: South Bend, IN United States of America
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-17-2003 08:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman1953   Click Here to Email spaceman1953     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think there were more than a few astronauts who flew their wedding rings in their PPK's, weren't there !?!?

I sent Alan Shepard a little plastic Mercury space capsule/pencil sharpener with the sparpener removed and cramed it with an American flag and some other stuff and asked if he would fly it on A14....but, of course, I got it back with a letter of regrets !

I think flags and patches are the most frequent things flown.....Jim Weatherbee, a Notre Dame grad, flew a REALLY old medal for ND from the professor here who the wind tunnel building is named after (???) but I sure cannot remember his name....ZAHM ????

Gene Bella

Larry McGlynn
Member

Posts: 818
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 07-17-2003 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Noah,

I have seen the betas in various places where the astronauts have brought them (like the autograph shows).

Now as for flown flags, I am partial to US flags. I like our country's flag it's pretty and I like the colors. I have ten flown flags in my collections only two are not US flags.

And astronauts did fly personal items in their PPK's. Aldrin brought a communion kit with him in his lunar surface PPK. It's those personal items that make this hobby interesting.

------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo

4allmankind
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Posts: 773
From: NJ
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 08-14-2005 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 4allmankind   Click Here to Email 4allmankind     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found this topic from quite some time ago that I find to be an invaluable post for those who collect flown atrifacts- I felt it deserved to be refreshed.

Because this post is of some age, would anyone care to add their thoughts on if the "order" of hobby preference has changed?

I would love some of the more experienced collectors/dealers to add their 2 cents to the above ranked-list.

Jay

Richard
New Member

Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted 08-16-2005 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would think the order of these would be somewhat different now. For example, would people really value an A17 AF more highly than an A14 AF lunar surface?

4allmankind
Member

Posts: 773
From: NJ
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 08-16-2005 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 4allmankind   Click Here to Email 4allmankind     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I totally agree...

My 2 cents...

#1- I think all lunar flags now need to get bumped up a few notches.

#2- I think I would value the A8 items more then A13 items.

Generally speaking.

Matt T
Member

Posts: 1356
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 08-17-2005 03:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd add that in terms of desirability the whole 'set' is becoming less attractive to me with each passing year. With three major space auctions a year, Gene Cernan selling through Novaspace and astros like Duke and Aldrin selling direct there is still no sign of the supply of lunar artifacts drying up, in fact maybe the reverse.

There are still many Apollo astronauts whose personal mementoes haven't reached the market in any numbers yet - Young, Mattingly, Schmitt, Armstrong, Anders, Schweickart, McDivitt etc. We all like to joke about Buzz and the U-Haul behind the CM, but in fairness there's been a plentiful supply of lunar items from Cernan, Scott and Duke in recent years.

Not to mention all the things NASA gave away over the years. Well into the 1980s some guys were still being given lunar flown flags as a retirement present. Maybe they still are? This stuff is rare, certainly - just not as rare as we like to tell ourselves.

Oh and for the record, my top item would be a piece of lunar flown spacesuit, A11 first, then any mission.

Cheers,
Matt

------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com

mensax
Member

Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 08-17-2005 07:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't believe there has been any change in the order of these PPK valuations as a result of a couple of years going by.

Sure, there is plenty of room for debate about "this item should be here" in the list. It was true then and now.

With regard to Apollo 17 flags... we've all seen a lot of items from Gene Cernan's personal collection come up for sale... but I don't recall him selling a single flag nor do I recall seeing one ever sell from Harrison Schmitt.

There is no doubt of the significance of Apollo 8, an incredible mission of historic importance rivaling Apollo 11. But to the average Joe on the street, Apollo 13 outshines it. Go down to KSC and visit the gift shop... Apollo 11 and 13 items outnumber everything else combined. If you want to buy a space collectable with the greatest chance of it increasing in value, then seek something that will be desired by people outside of the collecting community... A11 and A13.

And yes, there are quite a few of these PPK items "out there" (there a thousands of times as many A11 signed crew photos), but like A11 photos they are still rare, that is there are not as many of them as there are folks that would like to have them. These PPK items are just tremendous when framed and properly presented. There are many lawyers, doctors, and executives who would love to have one of these beauties hanging on their office wall.

I believe we will see an ever escalating increase in the price of these PPK items. The recent Astronaut Scholarship Auction brought all time high hammer bids and I think that the Fall Aurora auction will realize the same. I'll be very interested to see what the final sale figures will be at the current Mastronet sale.

Noah

[This message has been edited by mensax (edited August 17, 2005).]

Matt T
Member

Posts: 1356
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 08-17-2005 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For what it's worth, regarding the Apollo 17 flags - both of the NASA retirement gift flags I have seen recently were flown on A17, both seemed to be lunar orbit. I guess NASA knew they wouldn't be going back to the moon anytime soon and stocked up on supplies.

I wonder how many they have left now?

Cheers,
Matt

------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com

Matt T
Member

Posts: 1356
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 08-21-2005 05:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And as luck would have it - here's two more!

Apollo 17 Space Flown Flag Signed by Gene Cernan and Christopher Craft

David H. Greenshields Apollo XVII Flag Flown To Moon

Cheers,
Matt

------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com

[This message has been edited by collectSPACE Admin (edited August 21, 2005).]

4allmankind
Member

Posts: 773
From: NJ
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 08-21-2005 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 4allmankind   Click Here to Email 4allmankind     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Matt- Interesting pieces (and prices).

I have a question...Are flags such as these from Apollo missions flown in any particular astronauts PPK? I assume these are agency presentations (similar to the vintage flown flags attached to the 'white/cream' colored certificates) and not given out by any particular member of the crew.

Did NASA as an organization have their own PPK of flags etc to give personnel or were these pieces included in a crew members PPK?

I am sorry if this has been covered before...I am just curious.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 29337
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-21-2005 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The government's PPK was in fact the OFK, or Official Flight Kit (though the astronauts did carry flags of their own in their PPK as desired). Apollo 11 and Apollo 17 (at least) also carried a special flag kit for later presentation to the states and nations of the world.

For more details, see:

Articles Authorized to be Carried on Manned Spaceflight Missions

Matt T
Member

Posts: 1356
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 08-22-2005 03:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The article Robert links to raises a few interesting facts, but the main one that strikes me is the size and location of the OFK. Ten times bigger than all the PPKs combined(!) and limited to the CSM.

So not one of those nice NASA certificates is a lunar surface flag?

Cheers,
Matt

------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com

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