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Author
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Topic: Jose Hernandez and immigration reform
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issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 09-16-2009 02:55 PM
  
LA Times: MexicanAmerican astronaut isn't changing course on immigration stand He may have soared a gazillion miles in outer space, but back here on Earth, U.S. astronaut Jose Hernandez has stepped knee-deep in controversy.Hernandez, the California-born son of Mexican immigrants, is a full-fledged media star in Mexico. Fans here followed his every floating, gravity-free move during two weeks recently as he Twittered from the Discovery space shuttle mission and gave live interviews to local TV programs. After the shuttle returned to this planet last week, Hernandez told Mexican television that he thought the United States should legalize the millions of undocumented immigrants living there so that they can work openly in the U.S. because they are important to the economy. Officials at NASA flipped. They hastened to announce that Hernandez was speaking for himself and only for himself. "It all became a big scandal," Hernandez told television viewers Tuesday. "Even the lawyers were speaking to me." Will the recent comments by Jose Hernandez jeopardise his astronaut career? While in agreement with him, I think he made a mistake talking about a sensitive issue days after returning from the STS-128 mission. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-16-2009 04:06 PM
Living literally 10 miles from the border and experiencing first hand the the adverse impact of illegal aliens being trafficked into the US I couldn't disagree more with Hernandez. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-16-2009 04:26 PM
Whether members agree or disagree with Hernandez's viewpoint on this issue is probably a discussion best held elsewhere. The relevant topic to this forum is if astronauts should have the freedom to share their viewpoints or are they incapable of being separated from their title? |
Rob Joyner
Member Posts: 1308
From: GA, USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 09-16-2009 05:13 PM
As long as U.S. astronauts are getting paid with U.S. tax dollars generated by documented taxpaying U.S. citizens they should keep such viewpoints to themselves. |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 09-16-2009 06:01 PM
I haven't seen anything in the First Amendment that exempts astronauts from the freedom of expression. We've seen people admire Walt Cunningham, John Young, and Alan Shepard for speaking their minds (when they agree with them, anyway). Regardless of a person's source of income, he or she should be free to express his or her opinion. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-16-2009 06:25 PM
Hernandez might as well have been voicing an opinion on health care reform. NASA does NOT like public controversy surrounding it's astronauts. Period. Remember, this is the agency that sacked Bill Oefelein because his name was dragged through the mud for doing something he was by no means the first in the astronaut office to do. (I'll be willing to bet the first case of astronaut extra-marital shenanigans occurred in April 1959!) Oefelein's sin was being part of a PUBLIC scandal that drew NASA into controversy. And I don't really blame them. The job is too important to allow it to be affected by the travails of one individual.For the record, I have no objection to Hernandez voicing his opinion, even though I disagree with it. Reality, however, dictates that NASA will not allow this to be a continual distraction and cause of controversy with the agency. Bottom line: "Jose, we hardly knew ye!" |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 09-16-2009 06:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
Bottom line: "Jose, we hardly knew ye!"
I'd agree it's pretty evident NASA doesn't like public controversy, but expressing a personal opinion on immigration (or healthcare) doesn't seem to rank up there with infidelity on the scale of public scandals. I'd think they'd risk too much backlash from minority and left-leaning groups if they punish him for it.Better to distance themselves from it and hope it goes away. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-16-2009 07:11 PM
NASA doesn't hope; it makes it so. In my opinion, it's not so much the subject with NASA as the amount of backlash they fear it might cause. Charlie Camarda voiced his own opinion during the lead-up to STS-121, and I believe hasn't seen the sun in three years. |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 09-16-2009 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
In my opinion, it's not so much the subject with NASA as the amount of backlash they fear it might cause. Charlie Camarda voiced his own opinion during the lead-up to STS-121, and I believe hasn't seen the sun in three years.
With due respect, I don't believe Camarda's experience is comparable. He had an active disagreement with management -- he wasn't just voicing a personal opinion totally unrelated to NASA's function. I'd expect the backlash to be much more severe -- and politically damaging -- if Hernandez is punished for his statement. |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 09-16-2009 10:57 PM
I am beyond words. Personally I think we overlook the fact that astronauts are government employees and as such should be advocating the support of federal laws. Just my opinion.Some professions like lawyers, doctors, nurses, police and teachers for example are held to a different standard for a reason. |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 09-16-2009 11:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
Personally I think we overlook the fact that astronauts are government employees and as such should be advocating the support of federal laws.
No offense, but he did say that they should "legalize" immigration -- not that immigrants should be breaking the law. BTW, I'm a state government employee, and despite my source of income, I'd refuse to give up my civil rights for the privilege. |
sts205cdr
Member Posts: 649
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 09-16-2009 11:30 PM
Active U.S. astronauts definitely have, and should have, the right to express opinions on political issues, but in my opinion, they should file those thoughts in a desk drawer for their memoirs. |
issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 09-16-2009 11:50 PM
I agree that the core opinion held by astronaut Jose Hernandez is not something I wish to discuss here. It would, however, be a shame if it prevented him from getting another flight assignment. Unless I'm mistaken, the only available opportunity is a long-duration stay aboard the International Space Station by way of Soyuz. I did read somewhere prior to the launch of STS-128 that Mr. Hernandez was considering a move into politics, post-NASA. If the example of other astronauts is to be considered then that may now happen sooner rather than later. A great shame as his flight generated lots of good press in the Spanish-speaking world. |
cspg
Member Posts: 6210
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 09-17-2009 12:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by issman1:
Will the recent comments by Jose Hernandez jeopardise his astronaut career?
In view of the few remaining shuttle flights and the diminishing flight opportunities aboard Soyuz vehicles, I'm not quite sure that Jose Hernandez's astronaut career is at stake here. He is lucky to have had one flight. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-17-2009 12:04 AM
The number one astronaut commandment since day 1: thou shall not make waves or embarrass the agency.Oefelein, Camarda, others, and now apparently Hernandez are guilty of breaking it in the eyes of NASA. To me, they're ALL heroes who have put their lives on the line for the country. I believe they're entitled to a little slack and consideration, but that's me, not NASA. The fact of the matter is that time and time again breaking the commandment has consequences usually involving some kind of banishment, either within some obscure quarter of NASA or out of the program. Camarda was demoted, Oefelein fired, and if NASA's managers and lawyers are all up in arms over Hernandez now, that doesn't bode well for a future flight assignment for him. It's not how or why one broke the commandment, but the mere fact that one did that is the transgression. |
jimsz
Member Posts: 616
From:
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 09-17-2009 09:35 AM
Mr. Hernandez should stick with working for NASA and stay out of politics.While every citizen has the right to voice their opinion every employer also has the right to place their employees where they are needed and required. As a government funded agency, politics should be left to the politicians not the employees who carry out the mission. NASA could not be blamed for putting him in a back room somewhere working on some obscure project. No matter what one's position on illegal immigrants NASA can't afford to alienate any of the US taxpayers that fund their agency. NASA already has a public perception problem and controversy such as this will be of no benefit. I wonder if Mr. Hernandez has done any of the math on the increased social costs that a change in policy would create and how that would affect NASA. There is only so much money to go around. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-17-2009 10:45 AM
I think it's akin to being a journalist: They pay me to write. Not to have opinions. I may blog - in a space that only friends and family have access to - my private opinions, but even then I try to tone it down.In a public forum or in the court of public opinion though, it's best not to have any opinion. I don't think Hernandez should have expressed his opinion about such an issue, particularly more so since it is non-NASA related - and even if NASA does have "undocumented immigrants" working for them (not saying they do), it's the job of the NASA spokesperson to offer a statement. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 09-17-2009 12:11 PM
People join the astronaut program for many different reasons. The only thing they have in common is they want to fly in space. As such, some want to be career astronauts for many flights. Others want to fly one or two times to stick the "been there, done that" label on themselves and go back to what they were doing before or springboard themselves into something else. Of course, things can happen along the way to set those plans aside as well or change their minds. What is good for one isn't good for all.As such, all one can really hope for is to get one flight and if they feel like they want to stay on after that, anything else is gravy. As such, I think Hernandez knew the risk he might be taking if he spoke about an issue like this. As I understand it, since the first comment was uttered he has said he hasn't changed his mind, saying that while he is a government employee, he still is free to express his opinion on such matters. Whether it affects his career or not, it is too soon to say. Realistically, with the flight schedule as it is, only way Jose could fly again would be a long term MS ISS flight. All the shuttle slots, save maybe one mission, have been assigned unless the program gets stretched out. But then it will probably one or two more flights a year until 2012 or 13 at the most. I think Jose knew he was likely to get only one flight or he wouldn't be speaking out on an issue like this at this time. |
issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 09-18-2009 12:25 AM
I concur with the view that Mr Hernandez voiced his opinion when he did because he was unlikely to get another mission. Would his comments have sparked as much controversy a month after STS-128 landed? Doubtful. But if he runs for Congress and wins, I'm sure the NASA hierarchy will be pleased. |
Spacepsycho
Member Posts: 818
From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 09-18-2009 11:01 AM
Mr. Hernandez's 1st amendment rights are guaranteed by the Constitution and he can say anything he wants. Had he talked about an issue that didn't involve USA's laws, I don't believe his career would be impacted and it shouldn't be. But he chose to speak about illegal immigration and that's a big mistake if he wanted to stay at NASA. It's not for him to comment on this issue in public. He is a very visible NASA employee, not some 2 bit celeb trying to increase his fame, so his opinions should have been kept private. I'm guessing his flying days are over. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-18-2009 02:21 PM
I have a just removed a few replies to the post preceding this one and edited that post to remove off-topic assertions.I'm going to state this again, a bit more forcefully this time, and if members cannot abide by it, then I will close this thread. collectSPACE is not the forum to discuss the topic of immigration reform, or whether that reform is legal or not. For our purposes, it doesn't matter what it was that Hernandez said, or that it was Hernandez that said it. For the purposes of this discussion, the only question is if astronauts in general should be able to express an opinion, political or otherwise, without it affecting their career with NASA. If you want to discuss immigration reform, there are numerous other forums that are set up to do so. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 09-18-2009 03:56 PM
An astronaut has the right to say whatever they want to say. They should be careful to who, how, and why they say it especially if they are heroes abroad. Unfortunately, "free speech" seems to be non-existant when you are positions such as being an astronaut or a celebrity. Just ask Kanye (don't be rude of course!) |
issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 09-19-2009 01:15 AM
With the selection of the STS-133 crew, astronaut Jose Hernandez can only hope for a long-duration ISS assignment. Putting this furore aside, I have always felt that few astronauts have the desire to train 2-3 years for such a flight; travelling to Europe, Japan and Russia plus learning to speak Russian. Having seen how popular Hernandez is among the Spanish-speaking community, NASA would be wise to utilise him. Of course, is he willing to make such a sacrifice? |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-19-2009 02:05 AM
The matter, as I view it, is a pretty simple one. An astronaut can voice whatever opinion they wish, as protected by the constitution. However they must also be willing to live with the consequences of that opinion being aired, in the event that opinion causes embarrassment or undue attention upon their employer. The constitution protects your right to say your opinion, but doesn't necessarily protect you from the consequences of making that opinion known.For example, if I publish an opinion that I think my boss is an incompetent jerk, that is fully within my rights to do so. But I should not necessarily expect to still have my job the next day. (Disclaimer - My actual boss isn't a jerk at all... far from it  ) If Hernandez feels strongly enough about the topic and is willing to accept the consequences of airing his opinion, all the power to him. In fact, I fully believe he knew the potential fallout from his comments, but chose this time to express his opinion... while the spotlight was still upon him immediately following his spaceflight. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 09-19-2009 10:36 AM
He knew exactly what he was doing. I am quite certain that all astronauts are advised to avoid political statements since such statements will reflect directly upon NASA. I believe NASA has little choice other than to quietly push Hernandez to the side and definitely NOT put him in front of any crowd on an official basis. As others have said, he can say whatever he wants, but then he must accept the consequences of his actions. He is not a private citizen -- he is a public figure, and he is only a public figure because of his membership on an elite team. If he has strong beliefs, he should wait until he is no longer officially affiliated with NASA to voice them. And you can't compare his statements to those recently made by Cunningham or others -- Cunningham is no longer employed by NASA. And, I would say exactly the same thing if Hernandez had spouted off about some political belief that I agree with. It is the wrong thing to do, he knew it, and he did it anyway. |
blacklion1
Member Posts: 35
From: Bronx, New York
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 09-22-2009 09:18 AM
I wasn't counting, but how many interviews did Jose Hernandez conduct while on orbit with latino media outlets? I would dare say that there were at least two or three and probably more before and after the flight. My point is that NASA used Jose Hernandez' latino heritage to promote "NASA" to the latino community of the United States. Why now have "lawyers" gotten involved when the oppurtunity arose for him to state his opinion on immigration reform. Astronaut Hernandez isn't a robot, in fact I'm quite sure he was selected as an astronaut because of his book smarts and his ability to work well as a team member and individually. Of course he should be able to speak his mind when not to the detriment of NASA. These are earthbound issues, or are they? |
issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 09-22-2009 11:30 AM
You can watch all media interviews during the STS-128 mission on the NASA YouTube page. Jose Hernandez was infact asked for his opinion on this very subject during an interview alongside Nicole Stott (in Spanish but translated into English). Why no fuss then? |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 09-22-2009 08:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by issman1:
Jose Hernandez was in fact asked for his opinion on this very subject during an interview alongside Nicole Stott (in Spanish but translated into English). Why no fuss then?
Perhaps they realized that very few people pay attention to those interviews... but the LA Times is a different story. I'll bet the LA Times called NASA for an official reaction... |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-25-2009 11:14 AM
Was I the only one who initially mis-read the title of this thread as "Jose Jimenez and immigration reform"? It would've had an entirely different meaning! |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 09-26-2009 08:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
Was I the only one who initially mis-read the title of this thread as "Jose Jimenez and immigration reform"? It would've had an entirely different meaning!
Allow a shortcut to US citizenship? Oh, I hope not...! |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 09-29-2009 01:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by blacklion1:
My point is that NASA used Jose Hernandez' [L]atino heritage to promote "NASA" to the [L]atino community of the United States. Why now have "lawyers" gotten involved when the oppurtunity arose for him to state his opinion on immigration reform.
This same thought occured to me. Indeed, NASA has always been keenly aware of its public needs and the need for support and has repeatedly played this card to its advantage. The photo ops with Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, as well as countless members of the House and Senate, reflect efforts to gain support by placing the members of the astronaut corp into the media lights.The man was interviewed after his flight when he made the statement. He is entitled to his opinion. He is entitled to express that opinion. In this case, there should not be any repercussion for the comment. Expanding to address Robert's question more broadly, yes astronauts and NASA administrators and employees are entitled to their views and may express them. Obviously, some things cannot be said (i.e., commenting on a classified mission) and some things, perhaps, should not be said, but the agency should not restrict their speech. That said, consequences sometimes follow from the exercising of one's First Amendment right, and members of the astronaut corp. should understand that. One can only image what might happen if a member of the press asked someone at JSC about the current Ares and Constellation programs and received an extensive series of comments denouncing the idea and arguing that the US should scrap it. Sure, the individual has the right to make the comments, but consequences will follow. |
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