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Author
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Topic: Spaceflight participant vs. crewmember
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issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 10-11-2007 10:41 AM
  
In press reports, Malaysian officials have objected to Sheikh Muzaphor being termed a "spaceflight participant" by NASA.If Muzaphor undertook the full training programme of the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre, then surely he is an astronaut? Will the South Korean crewmember of Soyuz TMA-12 also be downgraded as a mere "spaceflight participant" by NASA? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-11-2007 10:46 AM
From "Principles Regarding Processes and Criteria for Selection, Assignment, Training and Certification of ISS (Expedition and Visiting) Crewmembers" signed by representatives from NASA, Roscosmos, JAXA, CSA and ESA: quote:
Professional Astronaut/Cosmonaut
A professional astronaut/cosmonaut is an individual who has completed the official selection and has been qualified as such at the space agency of one of the ISS partners and is employed on the staff of the crew office of that agency. Spaceflight Participant
Spaceflight participants are individuals (e.g. commercial, scientific and other programs; crewmembers of non-partner space agencies, engineers, scientists, teachers, journalists, filmmakers or tourists) sponsored by one or more partner(s). Normally, this is a temporary assignment that is covered under a short-term contract.
As such, both Malaysia's and South Korea's crewmembers are spaceflight participants, no "downgrade" involved. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 10-11-2007 11:08 AM
It won't be any different when Richard Garriot flies either. The term "astronaut" can mean anyone who travels in space. But "Professional Astronaut" is different as that is a job description.These terms are somewhat similar (yet different) from the old NASA designations of Mission Specialist (career astronauts) and Payload Specialist (short term contract fliers) of the shuttle program. So in a sense, the "spaceflight participants" of the ISS program would be somewhat equivalent to the payload specialists of the shuttle program. |
issman1
Member Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 10-11-2007 11:52 AM
Thanks, that does make sense.I wonder if the Malaysians were at all aware of the specifics of the criteria? Presumably, Musazphor and his back-up, Khaleed (who may fly in 2009), are employed by the Malaysian space programme. But Malaysia is not an ISS partner, yet. I am also curious to know whether the criteria was drawn-up in the wake of NASA's public objection to Dennis Tito back in 2001? |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 10-11-2007 01:31 PM
I wonder what label John Glenn would have gotten had he taken a flight on a Soyuz rocket instead of flying on STS-95.------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany International Director (Europe), Space Unit
Vice President, Weltraum Philatelie e. V. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-11-2007 01:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by issman1:
I am also curious to know whether the criteria was drawn-up in the wake of NASA's public objection to Dennis Tito back in 2001?
NASA raised objections to Tito's flight because a framework between the ISS partners did not yet exist to allow visitors, thus the cited criteria was drafted and agreed upon. The Malaysians must have been aware of the criteria as to fly, Shukor would have been apprised of the ISS Code of Conduct, which also includes the same definitions. With regards to John Glenn, had he flown on a Soyuz in 1998, his destination would have been the Mir space station, and thus he would have been a Research Cosmonaut (if consistent with other international visitors' titles, e.g. Toyohiro Akiyama). |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 10-12-2007 10:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by eurospace:
I wonder what label John Glenn would have gotten had he taken a flight on a Soyuz rocket instead of flying on STS-95.
I feel the term Astronaut (in the professional sense) should still apply to someone who has since retired from that position...just like one calls a retired military officer by the title they held at the time of retirement. So for Glenn, I feel that one can refer to him by three titles...Colonel, Astronaut, or Senator. All three seem appropriate.
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eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 10-12-2007 05:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
I feel the term Astronaut (in the professional sense) should still apply to someone who has since retired from that position...just like one calls a retired military officer by the title they held at the time of retirement. So for Glenn, I feel that one can refer to him by three titles...Colonel, Astronaut, or Senator. All three seem appropriate.
But always adding "Ret." to the respective title ... ;-) ------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany International Director (Europe), Space Unit
Vice President, Weltraum Philatelie e. V. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies |
Andy
Member Posts: 32
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-12-2007 06:49 PM
The term "space flight participant" is a uniquely NASA designation; the Russians consider him a cosmonaut, and in fact issued him a formal certification as such.As Shukor flew to the station (as did the others) on a Russian vehicle, I'm not entirely convinced that the NASA designation really has any validity at all. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-12-2007 06:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
The term "space flight participant" is a uniquely NASA designation; the Russians consider him a cosmonaut, and in fact issued him a formal certification as such.
The Russians certified Norm Thagard a cosmonaut as well, but that didn't change the fact he was a NASA astronaut. The cosmonaut certification refers to the training accomplished, not the role the individual will play during the mission. Yuri Malenchenko is a cosmonaut, too, but his title on the ISS is Flight Engineer. Shukor's title is Spaceflight Participant. |
Andy
Member Posts: 32
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-15-2007 08:45 AM
Norm Thagard is a bad example to use, Rob. Norm's job title was "NASA Astronaut."I repeat: the Russians consider him (Shukor) a cosmonaut, just like they do everyone else who flew with them. Just because NASA calls him a SFP doesn't change the nature of his experience; his role during the mission is not relevant, except when referring (again) to job titles. He is a cosmonaut by the nature of his experience. Malenchenko is a Cosmonaut by nature of [not only his experience, but also by] his job title. quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The cosmonaut certification refers to the training accomplished, not the role the individual will play during the mission.
Intercosmos guys (and others) were formally designated (and referred to as) "research cosmonauts." But they weren't Cosmonauts. Or were they? Role during the mission is irrelevant. The Russians flew him, they can call him what they want; your, and NASA's, opinion notwithstanding (noting, of course, that while the MCOP nomenklature is "SFP" the individual cosmonauts will, nearly unanimously, refer to him as "cosmonaut.") |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 10-15-2007 08:50 AM
They could call me "Bilge Monkey" so long as I got to go. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-15-2007 10:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
The Russians flew him, they can call him what they want.
Okay then, let's consult the Russians. On Roscosmos' biography page for Shukor, they listed him as:Участник космического полетаIf I feed that into Google's language tools, it is translated as: Spaceflight Participant. quote:
Russians consider him (Shukor) a cosmonaut, just like they do everyone else who flew with them.
A cosmonaut describes anyone who launches from Russian real estate into space, just as astronaut describes anyone who launches from the U.S.. I know there were (if not still are) astronauts who did/do not like referring to the payload specialists who flew on the space shuttle as astronauts, but it doesn't change the fact they are. For that matter, Mike Melvill and Brian Binnie are astronauts, too.But I don't think that is what the problem is, at least in regards to the Malaysians raising objections. They want Shukor to be considered a professional Cosmonaut, which he is not. He may be a cosmonaut by training, and a cosmonaut by the nature of where he launched, but he is a spaceflight participant by title. |
Andy
Member Posts: 32
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-15-2007 03:16 PM
And in press releases related to the flight, they refer to him as "astronaut" and "cosmonaut," interchangeably (but primarily cosmonaut)
http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=2481 "...first Malaysian cosmonaut..."
http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=2489 "...Malaysian cosmonaut..."
http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=2496 "...Malaysian cosmonaut..."
http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=2498 "...first Malaysian cosmonaut..."
http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=2497 "...first Malaysian astronaut..." I haven't yet found a Roscosmos press release that refers to him as "space flight participant."
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-15-2007 09:02 PM
If I understand correctly, those who had raised objections to "Spaceflight Participant" were doing so under the false impression that "Spaceflight Participant" replaced cosmonaut (or angkasawan) when in fact they describe different positions. By nature of launching from Russia's Baikonur Cosmodrome, Yuri Malenchenko, Peggy Whitson and Sheikh Muzaphor Shukor are cosmonauts. By nature of training Malenchenko and Sheikh are cosmonauts. By nature of his being born in Malaysia, Sheikh is an angkasawan. But at the same time, Malenchenko is a Soyuz commander and ISS flight engineer; Whitson is an ISS commander; and Shiekh is a Spaceflight Participant. Spaceflight participant is not a NASA term; it is a title assigned and adopted by the ISS partners. It is not a demotion, it a title of position. |
Andy
Member Posts: 32
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-16-2007 07:58 AM
Once again: SFP was a term developed by and insisted upon by NASA; what choice do the partners have but to abide by it? It smacks of "Not Invented Here" and typical NASA hubris. Had NASA been flying those folks, they would have been called payload specialists. Or, educator-astronauts. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-16-2007 09:11 AM
While I agree that payload specialist and spaceflight participant describe similar qualifications (being appointed rather than selected; underwriting the flight; lesser training and most importantly, not being hired by the space agency in question), I fail to see the parallel in regards to educator astronauts (who are NASA employees, receive full training as astronauts, are selected through application and are provided government-funded flights).But that's besides the point: regardless of who originated the term, spaceflight participant has been adopted by the international partners as representing anyone who is not flying on behalf of a member country, regardless the level of training or how they were selected. They are not a payload specialist as not all of them focus their mission on conducting science or working with a payload. I guess I don't see what the big deal is: spaceflight participant accurately describes what it is they are doing while in space. Back on earth after the flight, they are entitled to call themselves astronaut, cosmonaut, angkasawan, space tourist, or whatever other name they so chose, but while in space, spaceflight participant is their title. |
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