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Author
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Topic: New record Armstrong price?
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mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-30-2006 12:29 AM
   
Is $4600 (which includes the buyer's premium) a new record for an uninscribed WSS litho? |
mensax
Member Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 09-30-2006 08:19 AM
That's something isn't it? The fact that there must be tens of thousands of these out there in the world, you would think that there would be a great increase in the amount of these coming onto the market as people seek to cash in, and yet there is a constant small trickle of them. To me that indicates we have yet to see the peak in Armstrong valuations. It's hard to imagine but I bet one day we'll see items like this go for 10k... and truly unique Apollo 11 signed items approach 25k. Apollo 11 items, and Neil Armstrong in particular, are the indicators of the health and direction of this hobby. Sales figures like this are worth our attention. Noah |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 09-30-2006 09:16 AM
There was actually one that went for a bit more in March.
There is a good chance that the nicest signed Armstrong item in existence is owned by you, Noah. Your Armstrong July 16, 1969 signed check is remarkable!
Speaking of special items, the most amazing astronaut signed letter I have ever seen will be offered by R&R in the near future. It is a 3-page ALS from Alan Shepard to his parents telling them he is about to drive to Washington to try out for the new "Man in Space" program. He's giving them a heads-up in case of publicity, but asks them not to tell anyone for the time being. His excitement and sense of duty are evident. It's one of the most amazing letters I've ever seen. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-30-2006 10:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
There was actually one that went for a bit more in March.
That WSS from March must have cost well over $5000 once the buyer's premium was added in. Incredible.I agree about Noah having the nicest Armstrong signature out there. Not only is it a perfect signature, it is an historic piece that is part of the Apollo 11 story. Can't wait to see that Alan Shepard letter... sounds like it might be the most important astronaut letter to ever surface!
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zee_aladdin
Member Posts: 781
From: California
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 09-30-2006 10:43 PM
i think some people will pay that much for an Armstrong because they have not done enough research where they are able to get it cheaper. they are afraid that if they look somewhere else, they might buy a forgery. And that is why they pay so much at an 'auction house'.- Zee  |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 04-13-2007 09:34 AM
I believe this is a new record bid for a Neil Armstrong signed WSS (white space suit) portrait. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-13-2007 05:11 PM
Madness - nearly $5,500 with premium. Obviously the buyer hasn't heard about the "hoards".Paul |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 04-15-2007 05:57 AM
I could not help but notice a pretty shabby example sell at Aurora last evening for $3250 ...excluding commission.Regards, Rick |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-14-2008 09:26 AM
This may be a new record for an Armstrong signed photo. Please correct me if I am mistaken. At any rate, congratulations to the consignor! Speaking of Armstrong signed items, next month's R&R auction, beginning February 25th, will feature a book signed by all 12 Moonwalkers (and 23 of the 24 Moon voyagers, missing only Evans), a "Great Moments in Aviation History" litho as well as other nice Armstrong items. Best,
Scott Cornish
R&R Space Authenticator |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-14-2008 10:04 AM
Is that $16630 before the buyer's commission? In any case it seems to me an insane amount of money for an Armstrong signed item. For that kind of money you could probably get a flown flag from Apollo 11 with the signatures of all the crew.Just for the record, I believe this piece originally sold for $2750 on eBay a couple of years ago, which seemed high but not unreasonably-so at the time. I seem to remember Tahir was the buyer for this, or was it one of the other 16x20s that was also recently resold on RR? Or both? And the upcoming book with the 12 moonwalkers...?? |
Michael
Member Posts: 309
From: Brooklyn New York
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 02-14-2008 10:11 AM
Does Neil ever look at this site to see what is going on? I wonder what he thinks about this. Anyway Neil if you do look at this site every once in a while... "What do you think about all this? Can you send us a post?" ...anything?Mike
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-14-2008 10:23 AM
Even if Armstrong does read cS (as some of his other colleagues have said they do), I would never expect him to identify himself, as he would be deluged with responses, questions and requests. That's why, in the few instances that they have responded to cS posts, the astronauts have let their thoughts be known through representatives (and even then, some of the posts have been made without explicitly stating it was an astronaut [or astronaut's rep] responding). |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 02-14-2008 10:47 AM
Wouldn't it be the hell of a fun for Neil to announce a signing now? (Obviously just dreaming...)And he would indeed provoke the market, he dislikes so much, to crash. (I guess one buyer at R&R would certainly be mad at him for sure.) Florian |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-14-2008 12:30 PM
Mr Armstrong's mail-in signing prices, based on current market values would be something like... Base Fee:- On 8x10 items: $3000
- On oversize item (e.g. 16x20): $10000
Extras: - Personalization: Deduct $2000
- Crew completions: No extra charge (seems to make no difference)
Inscriptions: - On personalized items (e.g. "Best Wishes to"): Free
- Mission ("Apollo 11") on unpersonalized items: $500
- Other inscriptions on oversize items (e.g."Tranquility Base" on 16x20): $4000 per word
Pen options: - Horribly faded blue pen - 50% off total price
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Russ Still
Member Posts: 535
From: Atlanta, GA USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-14-2008 12:32 PM
I think I can accurately state that Armstrong is pretty much disgusted by the marketplace for his autograph. |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 02-14-2008 12:50 PM
Ahhhh. It makes wish for the good old days when you could get a Neil Armstrong for $3,500.Larry |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 02-14-2008 01:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
Ahhhh. It makes wish for the good old days when you could get a Neil Armstrong for $3,500.
Well, with the exception of certain uninscribed pieces and other exceptional items, the vast majority of Neil Armstrong signatures still sell for less than $3500. So the "good old days" are now. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 02-14-2008 09:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
So the "good old days" are now.
However, you can often find a nicely-done counterfeit Armstrong for $500-800 on eBay... ------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE |
mensclub10
New Member Posts:
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Registered:
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posted 02-15-2008 07:26 AM
Can't you find a personalized WSS in the $800.00 to $1200.00 range? It seems that non-personalized Armstrong WSS signed lithos have doubled-tripled in the last two years but the personalized ones have remained pretty steady. Dave |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-15-2008 08:45 AM
What's the betting that there'll be a flood of Armstrongs being consigned (from cS members?) to upcoming R&R auctions? Followed, of course, by terrible feelings of guilt at achieving subjectively "high" prices.Paul |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-15-2008 09:55 AM
I've been quite surprised to see personalized WSS lithos climb rapidly from about $500-750 only one or two years ago to more like $1000-1500 today.The one type of Armstrong signature that doesn't seem to have climbed is on crew-signed items. It seems very strange to me to see uninscribed Armstrong WSSs sell for as much as (or even more than) nice uninscribed crew-signed items. |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 02-15-2008 05:29 PM
A personalized 8x10 WSS of Armstrong went for $2,300 (pre-juice) in the R&R Auction this week.Steve |
deputydave1
Member Posts: 89
From: Loxahatchee, Florida, USA
Registered: May 2007
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posted 02-15-2008 09:13 PM
To All:I like Florian's thought. If I were Neil (I'm not and would have to respect his own decisions on what he does related to his signing habits) I would take the Neil Armstrong autograph mania to it's knees. Start signing for my charity or just myself and do what John Young did. Let everyone afford his WSS @ $500 +/- and put an end to this madness. Sign WSS until the good Lord calls ya home. Just a dream. Dave |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 02-16-2008 01:17 AM
That has been discussed quiet a lot of times already - is it immoral to decline such a lot of money which could be used for charity?The Swedish Pop-group ABBA has been offered $1 billion, that 1,000,000,000 green sheets of paper, if they are doing another world tour - even for charity - and they declined. Guess there's no answer to that question, each person has the right to do whatever he wants, but it would certainly be nice to see Armstrong do a signing for charity.  Okay... I'm dreaming again. Florian |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 02-16-2008 09:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by deputydave1:
Sign WSS until the good Lord calls ya home.
The problem is he finds the autograph market (in general) distasteful. He hated it when he signature sold for $100, let alone $10000. Plus, I suspect he wants his remaining years to do things he enjoys. He probably figures he's spent more than enough of his life signing autographs. |
DSeuss5490
Member Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-16-2008 04:25 PM
Here's something very interesting and exciting! My son received a short letter of congratulations for achieving Eagle Scout at 14 years old from Armstrong -- IN TODAYS MAIL! Under the signature is typed Neil A. Armstrong / Astronaut / Apollo 11. The signature is kind of cursive/printed, not the usual style we see. So maybe it is a secretarial? Still, I could not believe my eyes when my son opened the letter! |
Michael
Member Posts: 309
From: Brooklyn New York
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 02-16-2008 06:52 PM
Hello DSeuss5490, would you be able to post this item on collectSPACE?
Mike
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mensclub10
New Member Posts:
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Registered:
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posted 02-17-2008 10:11 AM
I was just going through the prices realized in the February monthly auction and was astonished! Check theses out: - 403 Lunar photo signed by the crew of APOLLO 11 $10324
- 406 FIRST ON THE MOON: ARMSTRONG signs the APOLLO 11 astronauts’ published account of their epochal mission $3287
- 407 Color satin-finish 8 x 10 photo, signed and inscribed “To Dave—With thanks for the help at EAA 88, Neil Armstrong. $2302
- 411 GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND: Oversized Apollo 11 Tranquility Base photo signed by ARMSTRONG, with exceptional provenance $16630
Is this going to continue for the next 5-10-20 years where we find an WSS Armstrong selling for $20,000-$40,000 let alone $10,000? Will Apollo 11 crew signed items sell for $100,000 in the next 10 years? What will be the effect when the Apollo 11 astronauts have left us? I just cannot believe these auction prices! Amazing! Dave |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 02-17-2008 08:42 PM
I think we will start seeing more Armstrong items coming out of the woodwork now.------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 02-17-2008 11:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mensclub10:
- 406 FIRST ON THE MOON: ARMSTRONG signs the APOLLO 11 astronauts’ published account of their epochal mission $3287
- 407 Color satin-finish 8 x 10 photo, signed and inscribed “To Dave—With thanks for the help at EAA 88, Neil Armstrong. $2302
- 411 GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND: Oversized Apollo 11 Tranquility Base photo signed by ARMSTRONG, with exceptional provenance $16630
Lot 406: These books signed by Armstrong always seem to fetch high amounts. An uninscribed one sold for $9000 not all that long ago. An inscribed one with excellent provenance is bound to get good bids too, though nowhere near $9000. Lot 407: This has a lot more going for it than the faded blue examples that the $1000-1500 market is established for. First of all, this one has excellent provenance. Secondly, it's signed in dark black ink (with no hint of fading)...making it somewhat rare among signed WSS pics. Plus, the signature is a real beauty. Items with provenance and quality will always fetch more. Lot 411: There are very few nice oversized photos of men on the moon signed by Neil...especially one signed in silver "ink." Add that to the superb provenance and you have yourself a real winner. What more can you ask for than a photo of a young Armstrong holding your item? Plus, how many signed photos have "Tranquility Base" written under the signature? The word "rarity" is thrown around way too much these days...but this is a true example of a rarity. Sure, the final price tag was 4-5 times more than an uninscribed WSS litho. But the item is also 4-5 times nicer too...and MUCH more interesting. |
mensclub10
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posted 02-18-2008 07:24 AM
Your points make sense but who ever thought that any signed item other than an a crew signed Apollo 11 cover that was flown to the moon would sell for $16,000 or a perfect inscribed Armstrong WSS would sell for $2,300 just a year or two ago? What do you think Lot 411 would have sold for 5 years ago? I'm just saying the prices are amazing and what will these items sell for in 10-20 years?Dave |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-18-2008 10:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mensclub10:
What do you think Lot 411 would have sold for 5 years ago?
As I mentioned previously this item originally sold on eBay (two years ago) for $2750. Five years ago I guess it would have been less than half that. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-18-2008 10:39 AM
Some points to note:1. R&R seems to achieve consistently higher sales prices for Armstrong/Apollo 11 items than other auctions houses. 2. Competitor auction houses have had a dearth of decent Armstrong/Apollo 11 items over the last few years. Even with just 2 or 3 Armstrongs in these auctions they never reach the prices achieved by R&R. 3. The implications are that sellers have gravitated to R&R for the higher premia achieved, but also that R&R has tapped a different buyer-market from the specialised space auction houses where collector/buyers have a limited pool of funds to purchase a wider choice of items. I suspect R&R's buyers are the speculative "investment" buyers rather than generalist space collectors. IMO there is definitely NOT linear growth in the value of these collectibles. Whilst in the long run their value will go up, the "R&R phenomenon" could well be a bubble or at best isolated overpayment by those who must have their autographs at any cost. There are just too many variables to make any value projection meaningful: a very-focused market; limited supply, yet known hoards of Armstrongs being hid away; different categories of buyer trading in different markets at different prices, etc etc. Interestingly many non-Ap11 items (eg other Apollo crews) sold by R&R do not reach prices achieved at other auction houses. This would tend to reinforce the specialised nature of their buyers. ...and, at the end of the day, there ARE still relative Armstrong bargains on Ebay (albeit not as many as there were 5 or 6 years ago) IF you do the legwork. Paul
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Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-18-2008 11:32 AM
On eBay, items are often inadequately described or are overlooked for various reasons. I would be cautious about relying too much on eBay prices realized to estimate values. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-18-2008 03:34 PM
True Scott, but I seem to remember that this piece and the similar other oversize piece sold by the same seller were discussed here during the sale on eBay so cS readers at least were fully-aware of them and their provenance. |
mensclub10
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posted 02-18-2008 06:25 PM
Question-How many 16" X 20" Armstrong signed photos with an inscription such as this one, are out there for sale-auction? Maybe one, two, three at the most. This is the only reason that this piece reached $16,000. Collectors-investors crave this type of item. When this type of rare item is offered to us the bidding goes wild. I also agree that R & R gets the highest prices for the better Armstrong-Apollo 11 signed pieces. Scott's COA definitely helps. It just amazes me what has happened in our hobby over the last 5-10 years. One last comment- R & R auction prices reflect the great material they offer each month in all fields of collecting. Dave |
mikelarson
Member Posts: 293
From: Port Washington, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 02-19-2008 04:22 AM
I've had the opportunity to deal with several major RR bidders through private sales (they told me they were major RR bidders during our conversations). It's only a small sample of RR's large bidder list, but each one these buyers had a similar profile. They were successful business executives or small business owners with large disposable incomes. I got a sense that they collected for three main reasons: interest in the subject, investment, and just the hobby of collecting things (they frequently collected more than just autographs like cars and artwork). These guys also have incredibly broad and diverse autograph collections that were unbelievable. Things like complete runs of US Presidents, etc. I was also surprised by the quantity of autographs these guys have, they were never satisfied with just one of a particular person for their collection. They also all preferred RR over the other houses for the same reasons: A steady stream (monthly) of diverse, high quality autographs with the best overall provenance (though not perfect) in the business. RR also takes good care of them, including no hassle returns if an item they find is later found to be non-authentic or they are not happy with the quality once they receive an item. Regarding this latest Armstrong piece, the photo hit a home run in all areas: It was unique, high quality, and of impeccable provenance. And it only takes two bidders who really want an item to drive the price into the stratosphere. Based on RR's track record, I would expect these types of items to continue to fetch big prices as long as the market doesn't get flooded. I wouldn't expect the continued meteoric rise in prices, but I wouldn't expect a drop, either. My two cents........ Mike
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keelerphoto
Member Posts: 55
From: sherman Oaks
Registered: Apr 2007
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posted 02-19-2008 06:28 AM
DSeuss5490, can you post a photo of that autograph, it might be the atypical signature that he has done in 1999 a few years back, it might not be a secretary. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-19-2008 09:05 AM
The range for Armstrong ISPs in the last 6 months at R&R has been $1000-1600, with an isolated $2300 due to its provenance. Remove the premium and you get a range of $800-1300. The ones at the bottom of the range were as good as the ones at the top, so demand is the only variable. Just goes to show that prices have NOT necessarily gone through the roof across the range.Paul |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 02-19-2008 11:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
The range for Armstrong ISPs in the last 6 months at R&R has been $1000-1600, with an isolated $2300 due to its provenance. Remove the premium and you get a range of $800-1300.
I think the premium should always be counted as part of the final price. The buyer knew that there would be a premium and was willing to pay that much for the item.Steve |
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