posted 08-22-2002 04:09 AM               

First, where do astronaut addresses come from? Do they stem from secret sources, obtained through illegitime techniques, as some might suggest? Of course not. All addresses originate from public sources. Otherwise no one could obtain them, not even me.

Now - what are these public sources? Press releases of agencies and companies, company website, online phone directories, online databases on pilot licences or land ownerships, to name a few. All this information is on the net, most of it for free. In other words: everybody who invests time and brain and knows how to do an online research and where can find it can do it. No one needs to buy address compilations - everybody can establish one's own list. So why don't collectors just do it?

In other words: why is there still a market for address lists? Simply because not all people have the time or now how to do an address research. You need to follow the lives and moves of current and former astronauts all year round - and not only when you just decided you want to write a letter to someone. You need to know where to find the information, how to evaluate it (not every address is a good one), and you got to undertake the effort to disseminate the information (if you want to). And if you want to make it a list, you got to invest time to put it together and distribute it. Getting it printed costs money. Sending it out costs postage, especially if sent overseas (a priority letter to the US currently costs about $8 here).

In other words - the information is all there and mostly free of charge. What costs money is
- the permanent, systematic and continuous effort to follow developments;
- the permanent and continuous effort to research new address, using the appropriate web tools;
- the material costs of online connections, system overhead, printing, package, shipping, work force to send it out;

Do those who demand free lists undertake this systematic, comprehensive and continuous effort? You can judge by yourself.

Is there a profit to be made? No. Address lists are not a profitable exercise. If I achieve a black zero with the fees I ask, than I've done well. I want to recover the costs I have invested, period. I definitely don't make a living on that - no one can.

And to be able to continue doing this, I need to protect the fruit of my work. The addresses are public domain - the "added value" of obtaining them, of compiling the list, of keeping them updated are copyright protected.

I don't at all mind sharing addresses. I'm doing so myself, and frequently so. I even have a yahoo list (astroaddies) that does nothing but that. Everyone who introduces him/herself and who abides by the rules (factual and polite exchange of information on the topic, no personal insults, political statements and pubertarian behaviour are discouraged) can join and will be admitted. Who does not and specialises in verbal abuse against members will be excluded.

What I do resent is piracy and parasitary behaviour: unauthorized and commercial copying of my lists (which is why they are never distributed on electronic support), obtaining illegitimate access to my yahoo lists and publicising it on other lists that are not open to me, etc. This sort of attempt, whether originating in jealousy, greed or bad or "well-intended" intention, will find the appropriate answer.

I am doing "this" (publishing this address list) for twenty years, serving a community of mostly happy collectors. I intend to continue to do this. Some individuals with a foul mouth will not stop me from doing so.

------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Brussels, Belgium http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies

posted 08-22-2002 09:14 AM               

I don't know if you are selling home addresses or biz or both, if you are selling home addresses, your behavior is despicable. While many astronauts are happy and willing to receive mail and sign autographs at their homes, many more find it an intrusion on their privacy. You complain about "parasitary [sic]" behavior, when this kind of activity is parasitic at BEST.

A better policy would be to let those collectors who are serious enough to do the work find the addresses themselves; it cuts down on the volume and makes it less burdensome to the individual fliers.

Some wonder why so many astro addresses are "unlisted."(!) And I bet you'd publish them anyway, regardless. After all, what is important is your "right to access," right?

posted 08-22-2002 12:25 PM            

Despite four years of German, the most complex sentence I can come up with is "Ich mochte dreiundzwantig bier getrinkt." Which has its uses, but shows my own thickheadedness.

Next, it is -entirely- clear, as a legal matter, that Juergen has an intellectual property right to these astronaut lists, whether they come from NASA, from research through the FAA, title searches, or whatever.

You could no sooner come up with a search engine, "Bob's Amazing House of Searches!" that just linked directly to Yahoo! and had Yahoo! run the search for you, even though Yahoo's links are all public information you are free to find on your own. These are -HIS- lists and any duplication is a violation of his copyright. There isn't even a legal argument here.

Finally, I gotta say I don't have a lot of sympathy for the astronauts who get "too much" fan mail. Yes, Juergen's list ups total volume (who would write to Neil Armstrong at his secret "two-day guaranteed return" address in Battle Creek, Michigan, if Juergen hadn't found it from records from the old Balsa-Wood Builders of America Club? Hmmm?) but the astronauts, I am sure, can figure out what mail comes from fans without opening it and toss it in the trash if they don't care to deal with it. You, as an individual collector, have no claim to tell another collector to -not- write a given astronaut in order to up your chances, which is essentially what you are claiming to do when you tell Juergen not to send out his list.

I've talked to a few folks on the anti-Juergen side, and I realize his attitude might come off as a bit exclusionary (there it is again, "-ry"!) and, yeah, maybe he likes to protect his turf. So what? I've never met him - I've never dealt with him directly - but if you don't want to pay Juergen $10, get on the 'net and figure it out yourself. He's all but daring you to do so.

I, for one, was very pleased that Juergen immediately offered me up an address for two cosmonauts I want to get a signature from and gave me some advice about how to best approach them. No demand for payment, just a kind comment and some needed help for a lazy slob like me.

posted 08-22-2002 12:52 PM               

From The Last Frontier.........

posted 08-22-2002 01:14 PM               

Anyway, the point here is there are several address lists being offered as an alternative. One in particular is being offered for sale on eBay and NovaSpaces Astro Auction. Ive not seen this list so I cannot comment on it.

Another alternative is available at: www.sportsaddresslists.com by Harvey Meiselman. Old timers may recall Harvey as a producer of address lists for various autograph areas, mostly sports but he did branch out later on. Do not believe any of this crap about "piracy", Harvey has been compiling for years and has access to many address data bases and compiled this list completely on his own. He has no need to pirate.

I appreciate the work juergen puts into his lists and feel his charges are accurate. Just simply offering an alternative.

Al

posted 08-22-2002 01:55 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy:
Jurgen,

I don't know if you are selling home addresses or biz or both, if you are selling home addresses, your behavior is despicable. While many astronauts are happy and willing to receive mail and sign autographs at their homes, many more find it an intrusion on their privacy. You complain about "parasitary [sic]" behavior, when this kind of activity is parasitic at BEST.

A better policy would be to let those collectors who are serious enough to do the work find the addresses themselves; it cuts down on the volume and makes it less burdensome to the individual fliers.

Some wonder why so many astro addresses are "unlisted."(!) And I bet you'd publish them anyway, regardless. After all, what is important is your "right to access," right?

Andy

---

Andy,

The frontpage of my list contains the following recommendation:
>>>This list contains very detailed data,
sometimes home addresses and phone
numbers. Important: DO NOT INVADE THE
PRIVACY OF AN ASTRONAUT. Do not visit
their home, do not call for your autograph.
Preferably use the business address, always
enclose return postage and possibly a
stamped and addressed envelope. Be polite,
polite and polite. Astronauts do not `oweA us
anything - granting an autograph is a favour,
not an obligation. >>
I think this is very clear. It is up to everyone's own responsability how to use these data responsably.

Moreover,
a) all addresses given originate from public domain;
b) in some cases, retired astronauts do not have any business address.

Hope this helps,

posted 08-22-2002 02:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by albatron@aol.com:
[B]Sometimes the schizophrenia around here amazes me. While one calls for politeness etc, you should see some of the offlist AND onlist emails from this gent. Hey Ive done it too, but I freely admit it and dont sit back and pontificate.

Anyway, the point here is there are several address lists being offered as an alternative. One in particular is being offered for sale on eBay and NovaSpaces Astro Auction. Ive not seen this list so I cannot comment on it.

Another alternative is available at: www.sportsaddresslists.com by Harvey Meiselman. Old timers may recall Harvey as a producer of address lists for various autograph areas, mostly sports but he did branch out later on. Do not believe any of this crap about "piracy", Harvey has been compiling for years and has access to many address data bases and compiled this list completely on his own. He has no need to pirate.

I appreciate the work juergen puts into his lists and feel his charges are accurate. Just simply offering an alternative.

Al
[B]

---

Al, I appreciate most of your comments.

I never oppose fair competition - this drives us all to produce better results and is for the benefit of the hobby.

Robert is doing a great job here on CollectSpace, for instance, and providing addresses (and more in the future) is a valuable part of it. The same goes for most other sources we can find on the market.

posted 08-22-2002 03:30 PM               

First of all, I am not a collector, so my motives for complaining, while not transparent, have nothing to do with my personal interest in denying you your opportunity to collect, as it were. I already have a list of addresses, that, I dare say, is far more comprehensive than Jurgen's ('though that is neither here nor there...). My list is used exclusively by astronauts/cosmonauts (that is, only they are using it, not that it is the only one they may consult). My complaint is based on the volume of complaints I get from fliers about their addresses being released (not by me, but in general--they *know* I won't release them). For the most part, they don't appreciate it. Your right to collect does not change that.

Jurgen has no "intellectual property rights" to the lists. He has copyright over the "format" he may be publishing them in, but no legal standing with regard to the addresses themselves. Q.E.D.

I've said my piece, I'll leave it at that (other than to refute any other mistaken assumptions about my motives...)

Andy

posted 08-22-2002 03:48 PM               

Just because an address is public record, does not mean that the person necessarily desires it be posted freely. Case in point: you may be able to find my home address but I would be very upset if someone published it on collectSPACE, where my collection is in full view, as it might make the job of a thief that much easier.

(Not that I should give anyone reading this any ideas: my collection is guarded by both my building's security and a personal alarm system. Not to mention my very protective, very possessive, and very sharped-tooth canine.)

I believe the proper way to comprise a list is after researching the public records, you then write each astronaut and ask which address they would like to have listed for collectors (i.e. where do they prefer autograph requests be sent?) and then you only list those addresses.

I do plan to extend my address list in the resources section of this site to all the astronauts who flew prior to STS-51L. I am doing research now based on the method just described -- obtaining an address from each astronaut based on their preferences. And if they reply asking that no autograph requests be sent, I'll be noting that as well ("does not sign").

posted 08-22-2002 03:48 PM            

Sorry to cast any doubt to your motives - if I overplayed my hand as a rhetorical matter, I'm sorry - but the copyright issue is clearly in Juergen's favor. You are flatly wrong about the underlying legal issue.

Juergen does not have a claim to the addresses, but he -certainly- has an intellectual property right not only in his format, but in his -collection- of addresses, in whatever format he sees fit. No one can, legally, take his list and repackage it as their own and distribute it - for free or otherwise. Yes, it's virtually impossible to prove, but it's *not* legal.

I'll not bore you with case law, but I think there's a fine example in recent years. A few years back in Boston when a rival traffic reporting service (Let's call it Service-B) was eavesdropping on the radio traffic between a traffic helicopter and the ground station (Service-A). Service B was then using that information to broadcast their own traffic updates. Service A sued Service B - and won - on grounds that the pirating party stole the traffic companies proprety. Certainly, no one owns traffic information (this is about as public as information comes), but one does own the right to use the information you yourself have collected.

I don't see how this case is remotely distinguishable for that one.

Sorry for bitching at you.

posted 08-22-2002 04:57 PM               

If you really care and respect an astronaut then don't bother them at all by asking for an autograph request. It takes away time that they could be spending with there family or loved ones. Alot of readers do not realize how busy our heros really are.

posted 08-22-2002 10:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy:
First of all, I am not a collector, so my motives for complaining, while not transparent, have nothing to do with my personal interest in denying you your opportunity to collect, as it were. I already have a list of addresses, that, I dare say, is far more comprehensive than Jurgen's ('though that is neither here nor there...). My list is used exclusively by astronauts/cosmonauts (that is, only they are using it, not that it is the only one they may consult). My complaint is based on the volume of complaints I get from fliers about their addresses being released (not by me, but in general--they *know* I won't release them). For the most part, they don't appreciate it. Your right to collect does not change that.

Jurgen has no "intellectual property rights" to the lists. He has copyright over the "format" he may be publishing them in, but no legal standing with regard to the addresses themselves. Q.E.D.

I've said my piece, I'll leave it at that (other than to refute any other mistaken assumptions about my motives...)

Andy

---

Andy,

In the many years I publish this list, I have had two flyers contact me with the request to remove their address from the listing.

I was pleased to oblige in one case (a listed home address), and I had to regretfully deny the request in the other (when the person was registered with her NASA address). I have not received any other complaints.

Yes, you do not collect. Maybe you would better understand the enthusiasm of collectors for their field of interest, spaceflight, if you did. You got a crowd of wholehearted supporters and fans of the space programme and the profession of astronauts here.

And I have met many of your association's members who appreciate the interest and enjoy being remembered for their achievements, which, in many cases, date many years back.

posted 08-23-2002 01:13 PM               

Where can I get an astronaut's e-mail address?

<<<Because of the extremely high volume of e-mail they would receive if their addresses were public, astronauts' e-mail addresses are restricted. >>>>

If this is the case, why post them? That right there is a bit too intrusive. And you never know who'll try and use them for the wrong reasons. I have talked to others on this matter, and they too have felt that they shouldn't be listed. I also mentioned it to a NASA friend, and they clearly stated that if the right people found out there was a chance they'd be changed. More to the point, if some normal Joe was to get into trouble for contacting anyone....... I can see what would be said......... "I got it from this list". And it's hard to say whether a disclaimer on the front page would save the owner and creator of a list like that. Like I said, food for thought. If the privacy of the individual is so respected by address list creators, them maybe they should think about leaving some information off. It's only fair to the person or person's getting the mail.

From The Last Frontier.......
Mike

posted 08-23-2002 01:20 PM               

I can fully understand that the retired (and still active) astronauts are busy and some want no part in our efforts. Those astronauts may feel they have given enough of their lives to the program not to be further burdened. But I also would like to think that some are enthusiastic enough about the space program to keep our interest high and also to be remembered for their accomplishments and dedication in the program that they generously give us an autograph.

If, as Gary writes, we should just not bother any of them. Should we resort to just buying from dealers and ebay? If they all stopped signing when they left NASA their autographs would soar in price and be unaffordable to most. I think some just autograph because they get mad seeing their free autographs being sold on ebay.

Like us, the astronauts have differing opinions. If the astronauts do not want to be bothered we should all respect that. If the astronaut is kind enough to help with our collection, we should accept his gift with extreme gratitude.

posted 08-23-2002 01:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Werb:
Since we are on the subject of address lists and such. Here's a little food for thought. Email addresses........... on one list the email addresses of astronauts now working in the space program are quite frequently listed. ( These are the ones they have through JSC ) Below is what it states on the JSC website concerning this matter.

Where can I get an astronaut's e-mail address?

<<<Because of the extremely high volume of e-mail they would receive if their addresses were public, astronauts' e-mail addresses are restricted. >>>>

If this is the case, why post them? That right there is a bit too intrusive. And you never know who'll try and use them for the wrong reasons. I have talked to others on this matter, and they too have felt that they shouldn't be listed. I also mentioned it to a NASA friend, and they clearly stated that if the right people found out there was a chance they'd be changed. More to the point, if some normal Joe was to get into trouble for contacting anyone....... I can see what would be said......... "I got it from this list". And it's hard to say whether a disclaimer on the front page would save the owner and creator of a list like that. Like I said, food for thought. If the privacy of the individual is so respected by address list creators, them maybe they should think about leaving some information off. It's only fair to the person or person's getting the mail.

From The Last Frontier.......
Mike

---

Once again, the source for this information is on public domain, i. e. on the Internet. If NASA wishes to keep this information confidential, all they need to do is not show it on their website.

In the aftermath of 9-11, some NASA services have even suggested that one rather uses fax or electronic communication instead of ordinary mail. No anthrax in an e-mail, so to speak.

posted 08-26-2002 08:56 AM               

Jurgen,

You likely receive so few complaints because so few astronauts are aware that you are selling their addresses. After mentioning your address list to my membership (I did not use your name, just the fact that a list was being sold), the following fliers asked me to ask you that their home addresses be removed from the list (if they are in fact on there):

Fred Leslie
Carl Meade
John Fabian
Loren Acton
Pierre Thuot
Jack Schmitt
Owen Garriott
Steve Smith
Scott Parazynski

These folks DO NOT want requests sent to their homes (even though they in some cases feel obliged to respond when they are). I assume that you, in good faith, will remove their addresses from your list? I expect to get more removal requests through the week, do you want them posted here or sent to you directly?

Andy

posted 08-27-2002 06:13 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy:
<<In the many years I publish this list, I have had two flyers contact me with the request to remove their address from the listing. I was pleased to oblige in one case (a listed home address), and I had to regretfully deny the request in the other (when the person was registered with her NASA address). I have not received any other complaints.>>

Jurgen,

You likely receive so few complaints because so few astronauts are aware that you are selling their addresses. After mentioning your address list to my membership (I did not use your name, just the fact that a list was being sold), the following fliers asked me to ask you that their home addresses be removed from the list (if they are in fact on there):

Fred Leslie
Carl Meade
John Fabian
Loren Acton
Pierre Thuot
Jack Schmitt
Owen Garriott
Steve Smith
Scott Parazynski

These folks DO NOT want requests sent to their homes (even though they in some cases feel obliged to respond when they are). I assume that you, in good faith, will remove their addresses from your list? I expect to get more removal requests through the week, do you want them posted here or sent to you directly?

Andy

---

Andy,

Thank you for your mail.

I am bit puzzled about the procedure highly scientifically qualified individuals chose here: they do not know whether their individual addresses are listed, yet they want it removed? In other words: you are acting on the base of rumour, and your spreading unfounded rumours to others. Shouldn't proper proceeding be to a) first check the facts and then b) act upon them, if necessary?

Secondly, this is an anonymous message board. I have identified myself with my full name in my messages, yet you are just going as "Andy" here. I presume I know who you are, and that we have even met in person, yet you will understand that I cannot accept anonymous requests on presumed facts on anonymous message boards.

If any astronaut wishes to enter in contact with me, they can do so by whatever direct mean they consider appropriate. There is even a button on the top every messages allowing anyone visiting this site to e-mail me directly. If you wish to forward e-mail from astronauts to me, feel free to do so, and I will consider the matter on a case by case basis.

I might note that the home address of at least one of the individuals you list (he is retired and no longer has a business address) is listed on this very Collectspace site as well. Feel free to contact Robert Pearlman on this matter.

Hope this helps,

------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies

posted 08-27-2002 06:46 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary In NY:
Hi,

If you really care and respect an astronaut then don't bother them at all by asking for an autograph request. It takes away time that they could be spending with there family or loved ones. Alot of readers do not realize how busy our heros really are.

Gary

---

Gary,

Tongue-in-cheek response: going to the Moon is taking away a lot of family time too :-)

Doing public relations work is part of the professional duties of an astronaut. It connects the space programme to the public and ensures public support for taxpayers money to be spent on it. Signing autographs is a part of public relations. Not necessarily the most popular part of the job, and some like it more than others ....

posted 08-27-2002 06:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by pokey:
I see no need to have active NASA personnel's home addresses published when they can be reached at work.

If they aren't signing from their NASA desk, I don't see why they would sign from home.

---

Pokey,

In principle you are right. I mention the Johnson Space Center address with active astronauts or astronauts turned managers.
Nothing else. They got their facilities to take care of this kind of mail from the public at the workplace, not at home.

posted 08-27-2002 08:36 AM               

Nope; I never stated to anyone that their address was "in fact" listed, merely that it was possible. They responded that they do not want their home addresses listed and asked me to ask anyone who might be compiling/selling lists to not list their home addresses.

You apparently know who I am, the fact that 1) others may not and; 2) you choose to list your name and occupation is irrelevant to the issue. YouÕre engaging in pedantics to protect your list; while I understand your desire to keep as much information available as possible, you do yourself a discredit by complaining about irrelevancies. If I was reporting a blanket request to remove home addresses, I would simply do so instead of providing a concise list of folks who have made that specific request.

<<If any astronaut wishes to enter in contact with me, they can do so by whatever direct mean they consider appropriate. There is even a button on the top every messages allowing anyone visiting this site to e-mail me directly. If you wish to forward e-mail from astronauts to me, feel free to do so, and I will consider the matter on a case by case basis.>>

I will be happy to supply your name and e-mail address to my membership; unfortunately, I think this would probably have a negative impact on these folksÕ attitudes towards collectors in general, and you in particular. I wish for neither. I merely want to accurately represent the wishes of folks who may not be otherwise represented in these kinds of fora.

<<I might note that the home address of at least one of the individuals you list (he is retired and no longer has a business address) is listed on this very Collectspace site as well. Feel free to contact Robert Pearlman on this matter. >>

Robert, Owen wants his home address removed.

Andy

posted 08-27-2002 02:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy:
<<I am bit puzzled about the procedure highly scientifically qualified individuals chose here: they do not know whether their individual addresses are listed, yet they want it removed? In other words: you are acting on the base of rumour, and your spreading unfounded rumours to others. Shouldn't proper proceeding be to a) first check the facts and then b) act upon them, if necessary? >>

Nope; I never stated to anyone that their address was "in fact" listed, merely that it was possible. They responded that they do not want their home addresses listed and asked me to ask anyone who might be compiling/selling lists to not list their home addresses.

You apparently know who I am, the fact that 1) others may not and; 2) you choose to list your name and occupation is irrelevant to the issue. YouÕre engaging in pedantics to protect your list; while I understand your desire to keep as much information available as possible, you do yourself a discredit by complaining about irrelevancies. If I was reporting a blanket request to remove home addresses, I would simply do so instead of providing a concise list of folks who have made that specific request.

<<If any astronaut wishes to enter in contact with me, they can do so by whatever direct mean they consider appropriate. There is even a button on the top every messages allowing anyone visiting this site to e-mail me directly. If you wish to forward e-mail from astronauts to me, feel free to do so, and I will consider the matter on a case by case basis.>>

I will be happy to supply your name and e-mail address to my membership; unfortunately, I think this would probably have a negative impact on these folksÕ attitudes towards collectors in general, and you in particular. I wish for neither. I merely want to accurately represent the wishes of folks who may not be otherwise represented in these kinds of fora.

<<I might note that the home address of at least one of the individuals you list (he is retired and no longer has a business address) is listed on this very Collectspace site as well. Feel free to contact Robert Pearlman on this matter. >>

Robert, Owen wants his home address removed.

Andy

---

Andy,

We are talking about a concrete list and not some phobia or imagination. Unless there would be a home address of any of the astronauts in my list, we have no subject to discuss. We don't discuss potentials and if's and what could be. That would be pointless, would it? Why would you bother a busy astronaut with an issue that does not exist as no home address of this astronaut is published anywhere?

Moreover, I just don't take any instructions from some anonymous individual who claims to be mandated to speak for astronauts. This would be very unwise, don't you think? Anybody can claim whatever on the net. Haven't you already made this experience?

Why don't you identify yourself, and any business interest you might represent?

I invited you to forward the mail of those astronauts you claim want their address removed. I am repeating this invitation, in a spirit of constructive co-operation. Why don't you just take it up and act upon it?

posted 08-27-2002 02:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt T:
Regarding the ongoing debate between Andy and Jurgen - just a suggestion: Andy, would it be possible to ask those astronauts who wish for their home addresses to be removed from lists to indicate their preferred contact address for autograph requests? This will make their lives easier (which I take to be the core of your request rather than an attempt to refuse autographs outright) and will make lists such as Jurgen's even more effective.

Cheers,
Matt T

---

I think this is a very constructive proposal, Matt.

posted 08-27-2002 02:59 PM               

Well, seeing how the set of people who's addresses constitute an "astronaut address" is rather small, it stands to reason that you will attempt to compile the entire set. Otherwise, your list is useless, correct?

<<Why would you bother a busy astronaut with an issue that does not exist as no home address of this astronaut is published anywhere?>>

Perhaps because bringing things like this to their attention is part and parcel of what I am expected, and get paid (by them), to do?

<<Moreover, I just don't take any instructions from some anonymous individual who claims to be mandated to speak for astronauts. >>

Jurgen, I am not "instructing" you to do anything at all! I am merely passing along the preferences of those who constitute the bread and butter of your hobby (or is it rather just a business for you?). I would imagine that for the true hobbyist, the first priority would be to honor the wishes of those supplying the materials!

<<Why don't you identify yourself, and any business interest you might represent? >>

Please tell me how this is relevant to the message I am passing along?

<<invited you to forward the mail of those astronauts you claim want their address removed. I am repeating this invitation, in a spirit of constructive co-operation. Why don't you just take it up and act upon it?>>

I will, but will it make a difference to you?

Andy

posted 08-27-2002 03:31 PM               

I am glad you passed on this information. I would never want to invade an astronauts privacy and usually do not send requests to an home address unless I know that it is okay to do so. This is a hobby and we need to take into consideration on how the Astronauts feel about it. Thanks Andy.

posted 08-27-2002 04:40 PM               

Did you know the Moon is full of quicksand in which astronauts would immediately perish? That's what people who do not know say.

>>Otherwise, your list is useless, correct?>>
Nope. The aim is to provide one address, hopefully working, preferrably the business address where any such exists.

>>Perhaps because bringing things like this to their attention is part and parcel of what I am expected, and get paid (by them), to do? >>
Then you should do proper, fact based research and not transport unfounded rumours, correct? You're not paid to spread unfounded rumours like "there is someone out there who distributes all the home addresses of all the flyers", no? Establish a solid brief, please. Your customers deserve that.

If, for instance, you warn every astronaut on your list (your organization does not, we may add, include every flyer who actually flew, and in earlier years, under different political circumstances, NASA actively discouraged active astronauts to join), and upon verification, your customers learn that from 10 people you alerted, 7 are not registered with a home address, this looks like if you exaggerated something and didn't do your homework, no?

>>Jurgen, I am not "instructing" you to do anything at all! I am merely passing along the preferences of those who constitute the bread and butter of your hobby (or is it rather just a business for you?). I would imagine that for the true hobbyist, the first priority would be to honor the wishes of those supplying the materials! >>
Of course. Only that I insist hearing it from "the horses mouth" and not someone still anonymous claiming to have a mandate.

I mean - I'm having offers in my mailbox every day from some obscure people saying they need to wash millions of Dollars of money and would let me 30 % of it if I did - am I supposed to believe everything, just because someone claims so?

>>Please tell me how this is relevant to the message I am passing along?>>
I said it twice, I can say it a 3rd time if it helps: you claim to speak for astronauts, so what is your mandate?

Further on, you said initially you were not a collector. This site is for collectors. So if you are not a collector, still visit this site, what is your interest? A very obvious question, isn't it?

You say now you are paid to do what you do. Well, this is an exception from all of us here, including myself. We're not in it for the money. Not that I despise someone doing something for money - not at all. But we deserve to know to be capable of assessing your interest in this. Transparency.

Perhaps are you in the business of selling astronaut autographs for yourself (maybe even for a good purpose), directly, maybe via ebay? Who knows?

Perhaps you represent one group of flyers, while other flyers are interested in commercial deals (I am not)?

Perhaps there are flyers happy about the interest of space fans, while others are annoyed, and for different reasons altogether?

>>I will, but will it make a difference to you?>>
Of course it will, and if you slowly re-read my now three messages responding to yours, you will understand why.

And as I said earlier, I will consider this on a case by case basis.

Did you reflect upon Matt T.'s constructive proposal?

posted 08-27-2002 07:47 PM               

Also, I would avoid emailing to this person ( not Jurgen ) as I did so, and was given a very chilly as well as rude reply. I do not see that this person has anything good to say about us as collectors, and would do more harm than help to the hobby.

posted 08-27-2002 08:00 PM               

Andy

posted 08-27-2002 08:16 PM               

First of all, Andy is not encouraging astronauts to cease signing. He is simply providing information to the existence of lists that may or may not include their home addresses. The fact that we learn that a particular astronaut doesn't want his/her home address used for autograph requests should be of value to through-the-mail collectors. Afterall, you wouldn't want your well-intentioned request to be perceived an invasion of their privacy or time, would you?

Second, before rumors start, Andy had nothing to do with Owen Garriott requesting that he no longer receive autograph requests through the mail. I spoke with Owen directly and he was unaware that address lists even existed. If he had known, he would have requested the same action earlier. (I apologized to Owen for not verifying my own list earlier).

Third, whether Andy decides to further clarify who it is he represents (Jurgen's own messages should provide enough information for anyone to guess with a level of accuracy), I will vouch that a) he is authorized to represent the interests of the flyers he identifies and b) he is not out to get the collector. In fact, he has assisted both collectors and for that matter, collectSPACE, in the past and may be encouraged to do so again in the near future.

posted 08-27-2002 08:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Werb:
With all due respect to everyone, I would like to say that if one isn't a collector, or at least interested in the hobby.......... why stick around?

---

With all due respect Mike, but collectSPACE is for more than collectors. I have personally heard from teachers, students, space enthusiasts, astronauts, journalists, historians, NASA employees, parents, grandparents -- well you get the idea -- who have enjoyed reading collectSPACE. While the focus of this site is certainly collecting, I like to think that there is enough diversified content that even a person with a passing interest in space would find collectSPACE enjoyable.

quote:

---

Also, I would avoid emailing to this person ( not Jurgen ) as I did so, and was given a very chilly as well as rude reply. I do not see that this person has anything good to say about us as collectors, and would do more harm than help to the hobby.

---

Its unfortunate that such bickering is taking place off-site. There is no reason any member here should feel it necessary to treat another member with anything but respect. Whether we are collectors, astronauts, or world leaders, we are all educated and mature individuals and as such I hope we can settle our differences intelligently and politely.

posted 08-28-2002 02:40 AM               

Yes I agree that there are more than collectors here, but someone so against ( or at least not a collector, and such. ) the hobby is more of a harm than help to it.

Enough said.

posted 08-28-2002 07:58 AM               

From the list of names Andy has provided, there were no home addresses from
- Steve Smith
- Scott Parazynski
- Harrison Schmitt
in my list. Consequently, we're chasing shadows here, and keeping busy professionals occupied with issues that are no issues.

For Thuot, Meade, Leslie, I can agree to remove the home addresses from my list, as business addresses are available and work.

For John Fabian, I do not dispose of a business address, as he retired from his previous occupation. I shall be pleased to replace the current address file with any address Mr Fabian might prefer to be used.

As for Garriott, I will annotate my list with his decision he does not wish to receive autograph requests by the mail, as I have done in similar cases in the past.

I hope this move will allow for a constructive attitude in dealing with this issue and look forward to see a similarly constructive approach from the others involved in the matter.

For the sake of transparency I would like to add two bits of information to allow readers of this message board to assess the interests involved in this debate. I regret that repeated calls for this openness have not been successful.

- The aforementioned Andy is in fact Andy Turnage, who works for the US branch of the Association of Space Explorers. His office is located on the compound of the United Space Alliance, a major aerospace contractor. ASE is a private professional association. Its members are people who have concluded at least one Earth orbit. You can find more information about ASE on its website: http://www.space-explorers.org/index.html

However, not all astronauts are members, and we can fairly claim that the majority of them are or were active in the shuttle era, while only a few names stem from the "veteran" era. This is different in respect to the Russian delegation of ASE where almost all veteran cosmonauts of the early periods are represented.

The association and its office head do actively promote the sale of autographed products (mainly posters), both on their wehsite, as through ebay or other dealers in the field, to support their fundraising efforts. This are legitimate efforts which - I think - deserve support. However, I'm sure it would help sales and fundraising, if a generally more favourable attitude to collectors and their hobby could be felt. I understand Mike's concern in this respect.

- Robert Pearlman has motivated his request to support him in publicising Mr Garriott's decision to cease responding to autograph requests through the mail by saying "He
has asked that I assist him in this matter as I work with him through Space Adventures." This would make me conclude that Robert has a professional interest in supporting Mr Garriott's wish.

Both gentlemen's interests are very legitimate concerns and deserve our respect. However, they are connected to certain business interests. Both gentlemen obtain the major part (if not all) of their personal income from defending those business interests. Again, this is their legitimate right and they can be congratulated for exercising an activity in a highly interesting and rewarding professional field. Yet, they cannot claim to speak in defence of the interests of the collecting community. I feel the knowledge of this background can help the reader of this message board with the assessment of their opinions and the nature of interests they defend.

If differences of opinions arise here, it is not "bickering", but differences of opinions based on different and equally legitimate interests.

I should obviously add that, personnally, I do not earn my living from activities connected to the aerospace sector. In that respect, I can claim to be independent from any such business or corporate interests. As an individual, I am defending the interests of collectors. As a professional in the field of media and public affairs, I advocate openness, transparency and access to information. In my eyes, wanting to restrict access to information which is public domain is counterproductive in an open and democratic society.

Even if we can recognize that Collectspace is not exclusively dedicated to collecting activities, both the name as the content of the message board suggest that the bold majority of its visitors and active participants are, indeed, collectors.

posted 08-28-2002 08:07 AM               

Mike, I'm confused here, please help me out. You sent me an e-mail message (Friday, was it?) and while I agreed with what you had to say, the note didn't seem to ask for, or require, a response. Therefore, I did not respond to it. How is that a "chilly and rude reply"? Please post the "chilly and rude reply" here for all to see, or retract your statement.

I'm not here to ruin your fun; I'm here ask that privacy requests be honored (which you apparently agree with, btw). All the power to you in your collecting, just please don't make it unpalatable for the people you are asking to sign....!

Andy

posted 08-28-2002 08:18 AM               

Correct; however, it is both irrelevant (and what does it matter that we are in the USA building?) and I dare say dishonorable for you to post my identity. Posting my identity was not your choice to make.

<<However, not all astronauts are members, and we can fairly claim that the majority of them are or were active in the shuttle era, while only a few names stem from the "veteran" era. This is different in respect to the Russian delegation of ASE where almost all veteran cosmonauts of the early periods are represented. >>

Just to clarify, while the US chapter employs me, I represent the entire organization. There is no staff in Russia, nor Europe, Japan, Canada, etc. So, I am authorized and expected to represent ASE-Russia (and the others) as well. Perhaps you were not aware of that, and I can see how it would be confusing.

<<However, I'm sure it would help sales and fundraising, if a generally more favourable attitude to collectors and their hobby could be felt. I understand Mike's concern in this respect.>>

And we do; collectors, however, would benefit from knowing the preferences of the astronauts, no?

Andy