|
|
|
|
Author
|
Topic: Apollo Question
|
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 06-24-2001 12:38 PM
   
I have a question about the "early" Apollo schedule that maybe someone here can answer for me.
In January 1967 (prior to the fire) the Apollo flight scenario looked like this:Apollo 1 (Grissom crew)1st CSM manned flight.
Apollo 2 (McDivitt crew) 1st LM flight.
Apollo 3 (Borman crew) 1st Saturn 5
Apollo 5 (Stafford crew) LM in Lunar orbit.
Apollo 6 (Conrad crew) Possible Lunar landing. Does anyone know what happened to Apollo 4 which according to the "back-up and skip two flights" routine, should have been assigned to Schirra and his crew? Thank you.
|
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2912
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 06-26-2001 06:16 PM
Tom -- Good question, and let me try...to the best of my knowledge...attempt to answer your question. Actually, the second manned Apollo flight (Apollo 2) named by NASA on Sept. 29, 1966, was the Schirra crew of Eisele and Cunningham with backups of Borman, Stafford and Collins. Apollo 2 was planned as an open-ended 14-day Earth orbital mission, which by the way, was very similar to the original Apollo 1/AS-204 -- the first manned CSM checkout flight in Earth orbit -- commanded by Grissom with crewmates White and Chaffee. Both Apollo missions were going to fly the Block 1 CSM spacecrafts, however, Apollo 2 was much behind schedule. In Nov. 1966 NASA decided to cancel Apollo 2 as an unnecessary duplication of Apollo 1, besides, Schirra was not happy with his Apollo 2 command as Deke Slayton pointed out. His senior pilot, Eisele, with pilot Cunningham were "weak" selections since the first two Apollos, as originally planned, were Earth-orbital flights with only early Block 1 Command Service Modules in use. Therefore, seven mission profiles (A thru G) were proposed. Apollo 1, still with Grissom's crew, will fly as planned; liftoff scheduled for Feb. 21, 1967. Apollo 2, now changed with a better Block II CSM-spacecraft, will test fly the first LM in Earth orbit and be commanded by McDivitt with Scott and Schweickart. Backing up Apollo 1 was the original Schirra crew, however, they were never expected to fly a later B, C, or D mission as other astronauts in training were more experienced with other "on-line" spacecraft elements (i.e. like the already-built Grumman Lunar Modules #3, 4, & 5). Schirra was looking for a later Apollo assignment, as prime, perhaps for one of the later lunar landings--but that is another story. Anyway, as I see it, once Schirra-Eisele-Cunningham were assigned to fly the first manned Apollo (Apollo 7) Schirra had already informed Slayton he had no desire to fly Apollo a second time, but considered his assignment a tremendous challenge in getting Apollo in space after the terrible fire. After Apollo 7 returned to Earth, Cunningham immediately started working in Apollo Applications (Skylab) with hopes of commanding the first manned Space Station crew planned to launch in 1972-73. As for Eisele after Apollo 7, he was later assigned as a backup crewmember for Apollo 10 along with Cooper as CDR and Mitchell as LMP. But Eisele was in fact the first astronaut "to be fired" from the corps in late 1969. Slayton wanted Cooper and Eisele to work in Apollo Applications after Apollo 10, but you know the story, shortly afterwards both retired from the Air Force and NASA, but Eisele stayed on with NASA at Langley until he completed his active duty status two years later. By the way, Tom, did you know that Eisele was assigned as a prime crewmember for the first manned Apollo flight in 1966 with Grissom and Chaffee? Eisele had injured a shoulder during a zero-G training flight in Dec. 1965 and was off flying status for a few months. He was behind in his Apollo training and was swapped with Ed White, who beforehand, was working with the Apollo 2 crew as senior pilot. But Slayton's first choice early-on to command Apollo 1 had been Shepard, but continued medical problems forced him out of the running. I hope this helps a little. |
Dan Lorraine
Member Posts: 373
From: Cranston, R.I.
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 06-26-2001 06:28 PM
Ken,
Thank you for the information....what an interesting story!! Why was Eisle "fired"??
Dan |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 06-27-2001 06:50 PM
Thanks, Ken for your very informative response.
It would have been interesting to see who would have gotten the first lunar landing assignment if the tragic fire never took place. |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 06-27-2001 07:00 PM
It's often mentioned that Capt. Grissom might have taken that first lunar step if he'd lived. If Adm. Shepard had had his ear surgery earlier he may well have been choosen for that step. We must remember he would have commanded GT-3 with Gen. Stafford as pilot, if not for meniors (sp?) syndrome. It follows that he'd have been given A1. Then if you carry these thoughts to conclusion, he'd have died with White & Chaffee (assuming they remained on Shepard's crew), leaving Grissom to make that giant leap.What if, what if? ------------------
Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli) "Take sides! Always take sides! You will sometimes be wrong, but the man who refuses to take sides must ALWAYS be wrong...let us stand up and be counted." Robert A. Heinlein |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2912
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 06-29-2001 04:44 AM
Good comments, everyone, and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability the above questions. First, when Donn Eisele came back from Apollo 7 and after working backup for Apollo 10, he got divorced and remarried. As Slayton recalls, "his professional skills just went to hell" and his interest was no longer in the astronaut business. By the end of 1969, Slayton and Stafford told him it was time to move on (yes--he was in fact being fired from the corps) and had to be out of the Astronaut Office within 60 days. Yes, Wayne, its very possible that if "Capt." Grissom (which by the way he was an Air Force Lt. Colonel at the time of his death and was a Captain when first selected as a Mercury astronaut) had lived--he might had been the first moonwalker. Slayton had said before that he wanted to see an original seven first walk on the moon. He further remarked that even prior to the fire, IF POSSIBLE, one of the Mercury astros would have FIRST CHANCE at being first on the moon. But it doesn't necessarily mean that our first lunar explorer was going to be one of the first 7. Only Grissom and Shepard (hopefully down the road) were seriously in the "moon landing" running as Carpenter, Schirra and Cooper were not in the picture and Glenn had resigned in 1964. Certainly, I'm sure most would agree, Slayton had the power and influence to make this happen. He even said, "my master plan from 1964 was still in place when the landing occurred." Gilruth and NASA's top brass supported him on this proposal from the very start. But accidents and many other factors came into play and that didn't make it a reality. On to Shepard: Actually, Shepard had been chosen to pilot the last proposed 3-day Mercury flight after Cooper's successful MA-9 mission in 1963. But NASA dropped the additional Mercury flight (MA-10) because it duplicated the efforts of the upcoming Gemini program. By early 1964 the original Gemini flights were proposed as follows; GT-3 (#1 flight with Shepard), GT-4 (7 days with a G-2 astro), GT-5 (1st rendezvous with Schirra) and GT-6 (14 days with Grissom). Slayton assigned Shepard to command the first Gemini with Stafford (not Borman as some believed) with backups Grissom and Borman. Once the crews were announced to the pilots, within a few weeks, much had changed! The Gemini mission schedule got rearranged and the Atlas-Agena program wasn't going to be ready in time to support GT-5. But most important, Shepard got medically disqualified because of an inner ear problem, known as Meniere's disease. Thats when Grissom was moved from GT-6 to command GT-3 and Young as Gus' pilot. Why not Stafford instead of Young ... Because Slayton felt Young was a better personality match with Grissom and that Stafford would be better suited for the first rendezvous mission that became GT-6 commanded by Schirra. Your comments, Wayne, about Shepard commanding Apollo 1 if he was permitted to fly GT-3 was a strong possibility as Slayton wanted Shepard on that first Apollo since late 1965. But what really changed everything, especially in regards to Apollo lunar crews, was the T-38 crash in Feb. 1966 that took rookie astros See and Bassett. This accident alone was to have a profound impact on the eventual makeup of Apollo crews, especially the first lunar landing. If See-Bassett would have lived to fly GT-9, Aldrin would have never flown on the last Gemini mission and thus would not qualified for the first lunar landings. He would likely, in my opinion, have flown instead on Apollo 7 or 8. Shepard, on the other hand, may have commanded an early and more complex Apollo mission. |
Jacqueline
Member Posts: 344
From: UK
Registered: Jan 2001
|
posted 06-29-2001 01:08 PM
KenI find the what ifs and the maybes absolutely fascinating. Am I able to print your reply off this website? If not could you e-mail me your response - it is just so riveting to me. Thanks Jacqueline |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
|
posted 06-29-2001 02:36 PM
I believe it is at the Astronaut Hall of Fame (it might be KSC), where there is a wonderful flow chart of crew assignments leading up to the Apollo XI crew. The chart shows the significant impact of the See/Bassett T-38 crash on crew assignment as well as the impact of Mike Collins' back surgery (which, among other events, caused a shift of Buzz Aldrin's assignment from CMP to LMP). It really is a wonderful display of what ifs and consequences. Ken, I do have a question and thought though. My impression has been that Roger Chaffee took Donn Eisele's slot following his injury and that Gus Grissom and Ed White were always part of the Apollo I team. Are you sure on the Eisele/White swap. Also (the problem with doing this from work and not home), if I recall correctly, Frank Borman placed some of the responsibility for the swap on the GT-3 mission (adding John Young) on Grissom. Finally, I suspect the viability of Wally Schirra's shot at commanding a lunar mission was a matter of timing. If asked in December 1965 (after GT-6), I suspect both Schirra and Slayton would have rated Wally's chances as high. Be it yet another assignment as back-up commander, or some other undisclosed dispute, most of the writings indicate that Wally had a burr under his saddle for most of 1967 and 1968, and simply pissed off a lot of management. The man who flew Sigma 7, sat through the abort of GT-6 and then flew the rendezvous would have been yet another outstanding commander for one of the lunar landings. |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 06-29-2001 04:44 PM
Yeah that cool head during the GT-6 "almost" launch, by not pulling the abort ring as per mission rules (possible back injuries during ejection aside), was one of the most courageous moments during the history of manned flight. The non-abort by Pete Conrad after the lighting strike of A12 is another. There are many more.You have to admit the selection process during the early years truly found the cream of American pilots. I'm sure the process of choosing today's astronauts (pilots) is just as rigorous, but the first 43 (we could debate one or two) were outstanding men & true heroes. Lordy I'm glad Ken keeps the facts straight, like my error on Grissom's final rank (I try to refer to the men's top ranks, whether achieved after leaving the astronaut corps or not). ------------------
Happy trails,
Wayne Edelman
(you-are-go-for-tli) "Take sides! Always take sides! You will sometimes be wrong, but the man who refuses to take sides must ALWAYS be wrong...let us stand up and be counted." Robert A. Heinlein |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2912
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 07-01-2001 05:16 PM
Just a few brief comments at the moment; first, nice to hear from Jacqueline again and please feel free to use whatever you would like in print from my opinions voiced in this forum. No problem, Jacqueline. In a June 29th posting from WAWalsh (name?), I too, was under the impression for a long time that Ed White was an original prime crew selection for Apollo 1/AS-204 that NASA named publically in Jan. 1966. But Deke Slayton himself, NASA's chief astronaut for so many years, indicated that in late 1965 his first (on paper) choice to fly the first Apollo was in fact Grissom as commander, Eisele as senior pilot, and Chaffee as pilot...since Al Shepard was no longer a candidate since the summer of 1965. Slayton indicated that White--early on in the Apollo crew selection process--was originally considered as senior pilot for Apollo 2 and later swapped White in place of Eisele for the prime Apollo 1 crew. But White's initial "paper crew" assignment only latest a short period before he found himself as prime senior pilot for the first Apollo. You can get more info about this in Slayton's book, DEKE!, published in 1994 with co-author Michael Cassutt. Check it out if you haven't already as I think you'll enjoy it alot. | |
Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts
Copyright 2020 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a
|
|
|
 advertisement
|
