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From: Houston, TX
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posted 01-09-2006 09:02 PM               

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Apollo 11's S-IC broke apart during its descent and was observed by a German ship's crew (small pieces even fell on the deck). The ship's location (at the time) was noted as 30d17m N, 74d15m W.

In 2002, Curt Newport (who led the expedition to find and recover Liberty Bell 7) wrote on sci.space.history the following:

I concluded that the S-1C boosters from Apollo 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, and 16 landed in roughly a 5 x 11 nautical mile area. The biggest unknown was how the boosters were tracked. After checking some documentation, I believe they were not really tracked at all; I think they used estimated theoretical impact locations based on flight models. However, if the boosters were fitted with C or S band radar xponders, then the location would be fairly accurate.

Granted, all of the boosters would have been reduced to wreckage with some large intact pieces, depending upon how they impacted the ocean. I would imagine they were tumbling during descent, as that seems to be what happens to these things once all the fuel is spent and they lose guidance. I imagine that many of the F-1 engine bells would have survived and at least some of them should be recognizable and capable of being recovered. Overall, the paint on the boosters should be intact as would be any lettering, as was the case on Liberty Bell 7. In addition, there will be long debris fields for each booster, with the heavier parts nearest the impact point and lighter wreckage farther down current.

If a photograph was taken, then Newport would likely know of it.

Curt Newport has a website. You might want to contact him and ask.

Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
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posted 01-10-2006 11:50 AM               

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I would imagine the main parts of the S1C stages to survive would be the upper part of the F1 engines and the thrust structure.

I sometimes wonder what happened to the Launch Escape Towers? They fired less than 30 seconds after S1C staging. I don't suppose the canards deployed when they weren't needed so I could imagine they would assume a stable position for the fall to earth.

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From: Columbus, OH USA
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posted 01-10-2006 03:18 PM               

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The towers had nowhere near the velocity needed for orbital insertion.

They would have come down reasonably close to the S-1C, I suppose.... at least in the same general area.

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From: Essex, UK
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posted 01-10-2006 04:50 PM               

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The S1C fired retro motors to separate it from the S2 stage. The S2 stage then fired for about 30 seconds before the tower fired.

At S1C/S2 separation the vehicle (Apollo 11) was travelling at over 2700 metres per second, if it had stayed at this speed it would have travelled over 50 miles before the tower fired. However it didn't stay at that speed, it was accelerating as soon as the S2 stage began firing so it would have travelled even more than 50 miles. (It takes a better mathematician than me to work it out!)

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From: Potomac, MD USA
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posted 01-14-2006 07:41 PM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by RISPACE:
Were there ever any pictures or film of the stages actually hitting the ocean or have there been any pictures taken by the Navy of them on the ocean floor?

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As far as I know, none of the S1-C stages from the Apollo missions have ever been located or photographed. Of course, it would be possible to do that and one thing I thought was interesting when I plotted out the locations as that the boosters from Apollo 11 and 13 landed only a few miles apart.

On an unrelated subject, I believe that an old Redstone booster was located during the Challenger search, as well as a lot of other stuff like aircraft, boats and ships, and even a kitchen sink.

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From: Midwest, USA
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posted 01-14-2006 09:41 PM               

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One question of interest to me... when launches were made, were there warnings issued to ships in the area of possible falling debris?

I would assume so, but I've never heard of these warnings being issued.

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posted 01-19-2006 11:51 PM               

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They are quite a bit more careful now than they were, apparently, in the old days.

But imagine finding the F1's that launched the first manned landing on the moon, this is a fascinating interest I've had too, thanks for posts. Would an easier target be the jettisoned escape towers/bpcs? They would certainly be great finds too.

P.S. Was thrilled watching Liberty Bell 7 recovery live back then! Wonder if the explosives really could have exploded after all that time.

Posts: 67
From: Warwick, RI USA
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 01-20-2006 07:59 AM            

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The "bomb" on LB7 looked like it was in pretty good condition when reviewing the LB7 recovery special. Glad it didn't go off when they removed it.

Anyone know how powerful it was? Were on-board explosives like that meant to totally destroy the Mercury Capsules?

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posted 01-20-2006 08:08 AM            

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When the LB7 was at the Boston Museum of Science back in 2002, I was amazed on how well perserved it was as well as the items found on board like the mercury nickles and dollar bills. At the depth in which the capsule was found, (3 miles was it?) decay and decomposition is slowed greatly.

Maybe the Saturn V stages or parts thereof have the same good fortune.

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posted 01-21-2006 09:07 AM            

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SOFAR stands for Sound Fixing and Ranging; they were small explosive devices attached to the Mercury spacecraft to indicate the splashdown location. They did this by detonating at a specific water depth in what was called "the SOFAR listening channel," which acted like a waveguide allowing the sound to be heard for long distances, possibly several thousand miles if I remember correctly.

Each device was both armed and detonated by water pressure and contained 11 ounces of HBX, a military explosive similar to TNT. The device attached to Liberty Bell 7 was located and removed by UXB International and fortunately was a dud.

From what I recall, about 10% of these devices did not explode. I find it especially ironic that the one capsule that did sink to a "nonrecoverable depth," had a SOFAR bomb that was a dud. If it had gone off, it would not have destroyed the capsule; however, it certainly would have made a mess of things.

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posted 01-23-2006 07:13 PM               

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Interesting thread. A couple of notes. First, the Titan stage that was recovered is on display at the Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville (or at least was about eight years ago).

As for clearing the launch corridor, the launch range (Canaveral or Vandenberg) is required to issue notices to mariners and NOTAMs (notice to airmen) prior to a launch. The caution/hazard corridor within US territorial waters is also cleared by the Coast Guard.

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Posts: 30
From: Orlando, Florida
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posted 01-24-2006 09:52 AM               

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Pilots would generally be advised of any NOTAMS during the preflight planning through the Flight Service Stations etc. They can also be picked up enroute. I fly out of Orlando Executive Airport and have flown several times out around the KSC and suffice it to say that the airspace there is severely restricted even when no launches are happening. Before 9-11 if you were able to get permission one could do a low 500 foot pass over the Shuttle Landing facility as long as you stayed west of State Road 3 which is the north south highway adjacent to the VAB and Shuttle Landing facility. Of course that is no longer allowed or wasn't the last time I checked.

I had heard recently that a pilot working on their IFR rating busted Class B Airpsace over Orlando International and ended up over the VAB without calling anyone. Sure enough a few F-16s from Patrick escorted the person back to Orlando and am guessing his flying days are numbered.

Many airline flights out of Orlando heading to the Northeast regularly fly over KSC and the Cape. A month ago I was flying to NYC from Orlando at night and you could clearly see the VAB and the outer perimeter circle lights of 39A and B. So the basic question of flying at the KSC is get permission beforehand and they will often let you transit their airspace without problem. However for obvious reasons 48 hours before a launch is off limits. Don't know the boating rules.

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posted 01-25-2006 11:44 AM            

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It's not far off the coast of San Diego. A couple of years ago a gentleman contacted me when I was working at the Science Center there, interested in raising awareness about it and trying to get it recovered. Did not hear much more from him after his initial messages, but did get him in touch with the SD Aerospace Museum staff who are more versed in such things.

I'd love to hear if Curt has any knowledge or thoughts on it.

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posted 01-25-2006 03:26 PM               

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While it was some time ago and I would have to really check my files, I did talk with the gentleman that was involved in attempting to generate interest in the recovery of Helo 66.

Mechanical failure caused the helo to crash in the ocean off San Deigo. It landed on it's side seriously injuring the pilot, who later died.

The big problem is it's location. At the time we talked, the chopper was thought to be in 250 feet of water. That depth is a technical dive with decompression, but is a doable dive. Having made such dives, the potential of salvaging the wreck was good.

I know a boat captain out in San Deigo (his wife works for the drysuit manufacturer, DUI), who used to run a tech boat out of a place near Boston, MA. He would have been a great candidate to round up a group of divers capable of diving to the wreck. That doesn't mean they could refloat it, but they could at least see it's condition and retrieve some equipment from the chopper.

Since then, I have heard various accounts that put Helo 66 at a depth of 1,200 feet. Which puts it in the hands of the ROV. At that point, I lost contact with the gentleman involved.

That is all I remember from the whole affair.

Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
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posted 01-25-2006 04:58 PM               

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That's more info than I originally had. Sorry to hear the pilot died though.

If it is at 250 feet sounds like it could be brought back up, maybe they could put it back on the Hornet!

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posted 12-04-2007 01:14 PM               

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To my knowledge, nothing has been recovered from the ocean floor, however there were parts of the Saturn V that fell on land (and in at least one reported instance, on the deck of a boat).

For an example, see: Out of Africa

According to The Aerospace Corporation's Center for Orbital and Reentry Debris Studies, "in July 1969 a small fragment (about 30 cm long) fell on the deck of a German ship in the Atlantic Ocean. Other pieces fell in the water near the ship."

The debris was later "identified as debris from the first stage of the Saturn booster used to launch Apollo 11 on 16 July 1969."

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posted 12-04-2007 05:52 PM            

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That's a really interesting story, thanks for posting the link.

I'm still find it strange that given the size of the boosters, no easily identifiable parts have ever turned up. Just one of the engines would make a fantastic museum piece!

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posted 12-04-2007 11:58 PM               

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The biggest sticking point about salvaging Helo 66 would be the Navy. Reason being is they still claim ownership to pretty much anything that was theirs when it went down in the oceans, regardless of how old it is. That has been a major sticking point with aircraft salvagers before who have wanted to bring up wrecks of pre war era and WW2 era fighter planes that have gone down. In a few cases, some of these planes no longer exist and can't even be found in museums. But even if there is one on the ocean floor that can be recovered, trying to get the Navy to approve a salvage is VERY tough. Once in awhile they do grant permission though.

So even if the location of Helo 66 is known, the Navy has to give permission to recover it (potentially tricky if the bird had anything classified on it).

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