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Author
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Topic: Alternate ASTP: Cosmonaut as lunar module pilot
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carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 01-04-2013 11:46 AM
   
What if, instead of the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, NASA and the Nixon administration had suggested another flight after Apollo 17 with a Russian guest as the Lunar Module Pilot? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-04-2013 11:55 AM
President Kennedy proposed just such a joint mission, which the Soviets rejected. Kennedy's assassination resulted in the opportunity being lost. But Sergei Khrushchev told SpaceCast, that in the weeks after the rejection, his father had second thoughts. While the Premiere had agreed with Russian military leaders that said any joint Moon flight would provide an opportunity for the U.S. military to learn more about Russian rocket and missile programs, he now thought that it might be possible to learn more from the technology of the Americans."He thought that if the Americans wanted to get our technology and create defenses against it, they would do that anyway. Maybe we could get (technology) in the bargain that would be better for us, my father thought." ...if these newest revelations are correct, the prospects of a visit to the Soviet Union by President Kennedy during the 1964 Presidential campaign, suggested by several former Kennedy administration staffers or a visit to Russia early in a Kennedy second term might well have cemented the joint lunar plan. (The Johnson administration made a similar offer for joint manned spaceflights early in 1964, but the Russians were too suspicious of the new administration, some analysts have suggested.) |
schnappsicle
Member Posts: 396
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 01-04-2013 12:02 PM
JFK had plans to put a Soviet on the first lunar landing crew, or at least one of the later missions.Personally, I like the way things turned out. If the Soviets had been more open about their missions (both successes and failures), then maybe we would have been more willing to include them in the ultimate prize. The reason the Soviets failed was because of bureaucracy and their own lack of leadership following the death of Korolev. Yes, I think the ASTP mission was a huge waste of money and national resources. Instead of a Soviet on Apollo 18, I would much rather have seen both Gordon's (Richard and Cooper) given a chance to walk on the moon. At the very least, ASTP should have flown in an orbit that would have allowed it to dock with Skylab. Letting Skylab fall into the ocean was another opportunity wasted. Again, the Soviets nixed the idea of a simultaneous docking with Skylab. |
Rusty B
Member Posts: 239
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 01-04-2013 12:11 PM
On the NASA Technical Reports Server is this study from 1971 of an Apollo CSM/Docking Module docking mission to a Salyut/Soyuz Space Station."International Rendezvous and Docking Mission"
PDF Size 13.2 MB - Number of pages = 341, Publication Year 1971 |
Glint
Member Posts: 1044
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 01-04-2013 01:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by schnappsicle:
JFK had plans to put a Soviet on the first lunar landing crew, or at least one of the later missions.
Perhaps Kennedy, or his advisors, knew the offer would be refused, and would thus be a safe one to make with little down side.In my opinion, Moscow missed a priceless opportunity to accept, and say to the world, "look, they cannot succeed without help from Russian pilot!"  |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-04-2013 01:20 PM
I actually have an outline of an alternative history style novel that works on this idea. The offer for the joint mission is made during an altered aspect of the Apollo 11 tour, while the crew is in West Berlin. Unfortunately, Joe Engle gets bumped again and Alexei Leonov takes his place with Gordon and Brand. Mission takes place four years later in October 1973, with the Yom Kippur War as a backdrop to a mission that experiences difficulties in lunar orbit and on the return home. I like the idea, obviously. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-04-2013 01:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
Perhaps Kennedy, or his advisors, knew the offer would be refused, and would thus be a safe one to make with little down side.
Kennedy apparently saw the Soviet partnership as a way to gracefully back out of the moon landing goal (and its associated timeline and, more importantly, budget) that he had set for the nation. To that end, he proposed the joint mission more than once, even after the Soviets initially rejected the idea. The first time, I believe, was done by letter, without public fanfare or awareness. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 01-04-2013 01:50 PM
Interesting speculation, but I believe it might have triggered WWIII when the Soviets found out that their LMP would go out AFTER the American CMDR. Another alternative would have been to have two hatches and descent ladders on the LM so they could exit and put their footprints on Luna simultaneously, but then the LM would have been so damn heavy it would never have made it.  |
sts205cdr
Member Posts: 649
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 01-04-2013 05:30 PM
WWIII would have happened if Al Shepard and Deke Slayton knew of a scheme to fly with one of those "tractor drivers" to the Moon!The idea that JFK's death contributed to the success of Apollo reminds me of the same thing being said about the Apollo 1 crew. Maybe so, but it wasn't a fair trade. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 01-04-2013 07:48 PM
Off topic, but I am not certain how much JFK's death actually contributed to the success of Apollo.Republican opposition to Apollo did not cease after Kennedy's death. In fact it intensified in 1964-1965 when they brought out "experts," mostly retreads from the Eisenhower Administration, to explain how this money was going down the drain and America would get absolutely no benefit(s) from landing a man on the moon. Even Ike himself spoke out against Apollo. It was not until we started pulling even, and then ahead of the Soviets, that the GOP (and some Dems) grew silent. The dwindling criticism may have also had something to do with James Webb (with LBJ's blessing) taking the critics on as only he could. |
Paul78zephyr
Member Posts: 678
From: Hudson, MA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-04-2013 08:37 PM
I can't see how the Soviets would ever have accepted a 'ride' to the moon on an AMERICAN spacecraft. It would have demonstrated that they could not do it themselves. Big face lose. |
Rusty B
Member Posts: 239
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 01-04-2013 10:16 PM
When did the Soviets become serious about a joint space mission? Wasn't it after the funeral for the Soyuz 11 cosmonauts, in July 1971, which American astronaut Stafford attended? |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 01-05-2013 08:44 PM
My idea was only an Apollo 18, last Apollo mission on the moon, with Gordon-Brand-Leonov, instead that ASTP. |
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