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Author
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Topic: Skylab and ASTP rookie assignments
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NASAROB
Member Posts: 38
From: Astoria NY
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 04-19-2009 09:48 AM
  
Is there specific reason Deke did not chose rookies to fly all three Skylab missions and ASTP? I can not blame Deke for grabbing that final seat for himself. Although Al Bean did work on the Apollo Applications, he did get to walk on the moon along with Pete Conrad. Hank Hartsfield, Story Musgrave, Bob Crippen, Joe Allen, etc., could easily have gotten those two seats. ASTP easily could have been Brand/Lind/Slayton. Deke was prepared to have Brand and Lind fly the possible Skylab rescue mission. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 04-19-2009 12:56 PM
According to his biography "Deke", Slayton actually proposed himself initially as ASTP CDR, with Jack Swigert and Vance Brand as his crew. NASA, however, apparently wanted an experienced astronaut in command, among other reasons to impress the Soviets with how important they considered the mission, and because both countries wanted to put their best foot forward.Veterans like Stafford and Conrad also wielded a fair amount of clout within the astronaut office, and could pretty much write their own ticket. Bean probably benefited from his association with Conrad. As to the rookies, there were more of them than positions available. And I don't believe Slayton felt any obligation to fly the former MOL astronauts (Bobko, Crippen, Fullerton, Hartsfield, Overmyer, Peterson and Truly) because he never really wanted them in the first place, and only took them in after being pressured to from above. They didn't really come into their own until the Shuttle program got going. Also, there were scientist-astronauts and pilot-astronauts, and it's unlikely Slayton would have picked an astronaut from one category to fill a crew position deemed suitable for the other. There had been some talk early in the Apollo Applications planning stages about having a crew consisting of a Commander and 2 scientists, but ultimately it was deemed necessary and appropriate to have one science-pilot and one pilot, in addition to the CDR, on each crew. As such, you wouldn't have a crew consisting of, say, Brand, Lenoir and Allen. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 04-19-2009 01:09 PM
I didn't think it was fair that Stafford got a fourth flight while others would have to wait years for the shuttle to fly. |
dom
Member Posts: 866
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 04-19-2009 01:17 PM
I think Stafford got the flight because he was both well-known and respected by the Soviets after representing the US astronauts at the funeral of the Soyuz 11 crew. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 04-19-2009 04:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
I didn't think it was fair that Stafford got a fourth flight while others would have to wait years for the shuttle to fly.
"Fairness" had and has nothing to do with crew assignments -- or with life in general.But since we're on the subject, what about Lovell? Or Young? Or Conrad? Didn't they get fourth flights, too? Michael Cassutt |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 04-19-2009 04:29 PM
Further to the subject, Stafford got ASTP because he had been working with the Soviets all through the negotiations creating that program. Had he not wanted the assignment, it would have likely gone to Dave Scott -- another fourth flight.Slayton certainly wanted the command of ASTP, but as noted in the thread, NASA HQ and MSC management believed that the Soviets wanted a flown veteran in command of both Apollo and Soyuz. Michael Cassutt |
albatron
Member Posts: 2750
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 04-19-2009 05:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
Had he not wanted the assignment, it would have likely gone to Dave Scott -- another fourth flight.
Do you really think Scott would've gotten that flight after the covers scandal? Having written the book with Deke I'm sure you have quite the insight, I'm simply curious. |
dwmzmm
Member Posts: 82
From: Katy, TX USA
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted 04-19-2009 05:31 PM
The final Skylab manned mission was crewed by all rookies.------------------
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.
Challenger 498 Section
NAR Advisor |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 04-19-2009 05:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
Do you really think Scott would've gotten that flight after the covers scandal?
No. I meant that, until the stamp business broke into the open in spring 1972, Scott was Stafford's primary competition for the command. I have heard that Fred Haise was in the mix, too, but turned it down in favor of Shuttle development.Michael Cassutt |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-19-2009 06:19 PM
Is it not fair to say that many of the vets from Apollo moon program had, at least by ASTP either retired or tranfered to the shuttle program? Even by the Apollo 17, Young, Duke and Roosa were assigned as backups as many of the astronauts had moved onto other assignments, or left the program.
I always thought Joe Engle should have been assigned one of the Skylab or ASTP missions. He also was waiting awhile to fly, and had been assigned to the Apollo 17 mission until Jack Schmitt moved into the spot. I think the success of Skylab and the ASTP program was testimony to the quality of the crews and the fact that NASA's selection process worked. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 04-19-2009 10:06 PM
And Bruce McCandless, the poor Bruce McCandless? If Apollo 18 had flown, Joe Engle would have walked on the moon on Apollo 17, but for Bruce only a backcrew seat? Why? |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 04-19-2009 11:12 PM
With regards to Lovell, Young and Cernan getting fourth flights, they were trying to walk on the moon, a first for each man. Stafford would have been flying in earth orbit something he had done before, although this mission was unique. Conrad's command of Skylab could be questioned as well but I can see NASA wanting a vet in command on that one. By fairness I meant that other rookies had paid their dues, and since ASTP was the last ride for some time, someone else shoud have gotten that seat. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 04-19-2009 11:32 PM
I think Joe Engle opted to concentrate on the development of the Space Shuttle after being bumped from Apollo 17. McCandless and Lind were simply the victims of there being too many astronauts and not enough flights. Someone had to be last in line from their class.I also read somewhere that Slayton wanted Walt Cunningham as backup CDR for Skylab 1, and Rusty Schweikart as backup CDR for 2 & 3. When Cunningham decided he didn't want to hang around for a backup job and retired, Schweikart moved up to the Skylab 1 position, and Vance Brand became backup CDR of 2 & 3. Dick Gordon was also considered for one of these slots, but decided to retire after losing Apollo 18, then 17. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 04-20-2009 09:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
Bean probably benefited from his association with Conrad.
If after Apollo 12 Dick Gordon had followed Pete and Al, would have commanded Skylab 4? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 04-20-2009 02:46 PM
In my opinion, had Gordon indicated a desire to fly a Skylab mission early on enough, it probably would have happened. However, by the time the Gordon vs. Cernan competition to command Apollo 17 ended, the Skylab crew assignments had already been made. When Walt Cunningham decided to retire rather than be Conrad's backup, Gordon might have been considered for that slot by Slayton (and then ASTP CDR?), but ultimately Gordon too decided to call it a career and move on.If anything, I think Cunningham got the short end of the stick. IMO he didn't deserve to be dragged down with Schirra and Eisele as a result of Apollo 7, and even Chris Kraft recently admitted as much. He headed the Skylab branch of the astronaut office until Conrad took over, and played an important role in making Skylab a reality. He supposedly had been assured by Tom Stafford (as Astronaut Office Chief) that he would command the first crew. While Conrad ultimately commanding the first mission was understandable, I feel that Cunningham should have commanded the second or third crew. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 04-20-2009 06:02 PM
I think Dick Gordon's desire to walk on the moon was so strong that he didn't dare even mention an inclination to fly on Skylab. And indeed, he may not have even had any interest in flying to Skylab even if it was offered to him. |
webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 04-20-2009 09:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
Bean probably benefited from his association with Conrad.
I think Bean also got the Skylab 2 command as a result of his having spent so much time on Apollo Applications while in flight purgatory. |
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