posted 02-16-2006 02:48 PM               

With regards Schirra I think Deke would still have followed his principle of putting an astronaut back into the rotation as a back-up commander before flying as prime again. After three flights Schirra wasn't going to do that again even for a lunar flight. Whilst Deke did put Shepard back straight in as prime CDR for AS-14, there were exceptional circumstances with Shepard returning to flight status, whereas Schirra was not.

As for Deke himself, it would have been very hard to bump one of the LMs or CMs for Apollo 15 - 17 who had already served as back-ups. There was already enough grief over the Schmitt/Engle debate. At best Deke might have flown as a Skylab CMP if he had returned to flight status earlier.

posted 02-16-2006 05:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by ejectr:
You've wetted my appetite . . . !!!???

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Well, it's Rene's take, based on close observation at the time and knowledge of national politics and the mercurial, uncontrollable dynamics of fame.

If you re-read those portions of THE RIGHT STUFF, Wolfe captures the Lindberghian proportions of Glenn's fame after his February 1962 flight. So to frame the discussion of whither Glenn and why, it's really important to discuss not small-bore politics, as in Gee, Deke was so mean, and the guys were jealous of John, but large-bore, nationally momentous, presidential timber-type politics.

The Kennedys in their day, as the Bush clan has been doing for a few generations, had the habit of adopting stars (like John Glenn)--Ethel Kennedy called them "sparklies"--and then using them to promote personal, political, or national agendas.

Glenn was the most recognizable, most popular man on the planet. He did not ask to be. But he was. The Kennedys folded him into their political and personal embrace, something Glenn tolerated as a matter of necessity. He was a Marine public servant, first seconded to a civilian NASA, and then seconded (thirded?) to the White House for propaganda purposes at home and abroad.

The political good will tours were roundly detested by a Marine who would rather be flying and training. But Glenn did what he was told. And back at NASA, well. The whole Glenn schtick was difficult for a very hard-working and very competitive bunch of astronauts who were, as it happens, also less articulate and less photogenic.

He stopped getting memos. Missed meetings.

Then Kennedy was assassinated. Glenn resigned from NASA. Then he slipped in the bathroom.

"Glenn had one foot out the door . . ." after his flight is only half true, in other words. The question to ask is, why?

The answer, I believe, does not lie in Glenn's personal political ambition, but in the Kennedy administration's need to bolster its popularity at home and the country's abroad.

But re-read Tom Wolfe's superlative reporting in THE RIGHT STUFF on the New York parade. On Joe Kennedy's reaction to the man. On his address to Congress.

Then imagine how an image-conscious administration might find a way to use, and I mean use, an American hero who if you asked him would tell you he'd rather be flying and training for a lunar landing.

[This message has been edited by KC Stoever (edited February 16, 2006).]

posted 02-16-2006 06:18 PM               

Shot on 35mm film, well-exposed with excellent color density and preserved in perfect condition, it simply looks spectacular, and captures the public mood perfectly....

Mark

posted 02-16-2006 07:38 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by spacecraft films:
Speaking of the parade, one of the best (visually) tracks on our Mercury set is the footage we found of the post-MA-6 NYC parade.

Shot on 35mm film, well-exposed with excellent color density and preserved in perfect condition, it simply looks spectacular, and captures the public mood perfectly....

Mark

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Thanks for that, Mark, in keeping with "whetted appetites."

Kris

posted 02-16-2006 07:46 PM               

What a shame such a great gentleman was taken advantage of in such a manner. With an anchor like that, it's no wonder he left the space program.

posted 02-16-2006 08:39 PM               

When working with the footage I re-read "For Spacious Skies" and found a new dimension to what I was seeing.

And what a spiffy little pill-box hat you were sporting!

Mark

posted 02-16-2006 08:42 PM               

Did you see the invisible stretchy chinstrap, Mark, so my pillbox hat never strayed??

posted 02-16-2006 08:47 PM               

I must admit that having chatted on the board and read the book, when I saw the DP coming down the stairs of the plane holding YOUR hand the whole time I broke into a very wide smile....

posted 02-17-2006 10:05 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by KenDavis:
I understood that NASA was reluctant to give Glenn another flight simply because if something had gone wrong the loss of such a hero would have been devestating. Realising a second flight would not be coming he went into politics. . . .

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This urban legend will not die, and Glenn's memoirs do not help matters, leaving it as a "some say" kind of factoid.

The fact is, no one I know can point to a memo, a directive, a conversation, an order--anything--in which Gilruth or Webb was informed of a presidential (or RFK) decision that Glenn not fly again.

The story seems traceable more to gossip and insinuation--Glenn's too ~precious~ to fly again, that's what I've heard . . ."

It's an effective kind of news virus, as it appears to have zoomed around NASA among disaffected apparatchiks nervous about Astro Power in general and Glenn in particular.

posted 02-17-2006 12:32 PM            

I just finished the book - it was great all the way through, even the acknowledgements and notes. Are you thinking of writing another? Your viewpoints on the rest of the program are worth capturing in more "permanent" form.

posted 02-17-2006 10:02 PM               

It would be nice to have a writing project, and of course I'm drawn to the themes of the early space program, particularly the heroism and the family angles.

Toward that end, am wondering if I should write about my brother, Scotty, namesake, National Merit Scholar, class of Clear Creek H.S. '67, debate team champion, Senate page, adored older brother, Harvard '71, and diagnosed schizophrenic, ca. 1968.

He was 4F for Vietnam (that pesky schizoprenia) but volunteered after the war and served in the US Army for six years (that pesky schhizophrenia kicking in once more).

Go figure. I think there may be a story there. I call it Unfortunate Son.

Speaking of space literature, can anyone, anyone, tell me why there is no good historical treatment of the Apollo 1 fire?

posted 02-17-2006 10:52 PM               

I actually remember John Glenn from TV - now MY age comes into play. But it strikes me he was somewhat of a known commodity before the 1959 selection.

But he was 40 when he flew, at least a couple of years older than the rest, and the 3-year interregnum between Friendship 7 and Molly Brown seemed like a lifetime.

I read someplace Deke Slayton passed around a form for Mercury pilots to request a Gemini mission, and John Glenn got one, so he was on flight status. There are the photos of him in survival drag along with Next Nine Guys, so he must have been anticipating a second flight.

But I think the long interval between flights was probably the determinant. Molly Brown was nearly 2 years after Faith 7. That was also too long for the Dynamic Pioneer.

This is just an opinion, though, and someone else probably has the actual facts.

posted 02-18-2006 10:01 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Duke Of URL:
Seriously, didn't Glenn's age play into the decision?

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My sense, seriously, is that age was insinuated as a factor by others who also list this defect along with other unkind/untrue things about the man.

So then you have to ask yourself commonsense questions about Glenn and about this question of age and fitness. And the commonsense reply is that, at 40, Glenn was not just any ol' Marine in any ol' Marine shape.

I don't want to over-idealize an already lionized icon, but the facts of his physical conditioning, and of his will to maintain it, remain.

One has a chronological age, and a wellness, or fitness, age, until time and chance catch up with one forever, usually around age 60.

How old was Al on his lunar expedition? How old would Glenn have been, in 1969, for the first lunar landing?

But all this is beside the point, really, once Glenn disappeared, as I wrote in FSS, into the great American maw (in 1962) reserved for heroes of the first order. And the Kennedy assassination changed everything for the Glenns, causing them to rethink family and personal priorities.

The Kennedy administration used Glenn for political purposes--I'm not suggesting this was nefarious, that's what happens in the big leagues--and this impaired his ability, back at NASA, to stay in the thick of things. I am speaking here of the politics, infighting, and training one needs to do to stay competitive in a super-competitive environment.

Thanks for the recall, ejectr, on the Clemmons posts and Apollo 1. I kind of remember them too but don't recall news of publication or book reviews or anything. . . Would be interested to read it, if it was published.

Kris

posted 02-18-2006 12:31 PM               

In 1969 Glenn would have been about the same age.

At the time this made Shepard the oldest person to fly in space. Now that honor is held by Glenn.

posted 02-18-2006 03:21 PM               

My belief is that it may have been something like, "I'm 40 now and it'll be another 5 years before I fly again." But, you knew (know) the man so your vantage point is much better.

The Dynamic Pioneer was medically grounded in 64, but prior to that was he intending to fly in space again? Deke Slayton did send him a questionnaire to fill out requesting a mission after Mercury concluded. However, didn't he move to Sealab because of the lengthy time between Mercury and Gemini?

I based my opinion of Glenn's retirement on

posted 02-18-2006 03:59 PM               

It's fair to say a lot of factors go in to momentous career decisions. In my post, I focused on what I thought were the driving factors. The mordant Glenn quote sounds, IMHO, like a slightly bitter rationalization after the fact of resigning. But that's just my take. Can this quote be dated?

My belief is that it may have been something like, "I'm 40 now and it'll be another 5 years before I fly again."

OK, but this focus on Glenn's chronological age neglects the more important factor: the onerous demands on his time that prevented him from attending meetings etc.

The Dynamic Pioneer was medically grounded in 64, but prior to that was he intending to fly in space again?

Yes. His plan was to rotate in and out of Sealab and NASA as his intellectual and training interests dictated.

Deke Slayton did send him a questionnaire to fill out requesting a mission after Mercury concluded.

Yes. Carpenter checked "not interested" thinking he could get back into Apollo flights.

However, didn't he move to Sealab because of the lengthy time between Mercury and Gemini?

Again, yes. My sense is that Carpenter knew or had absorbed, at least on a subconscious level, that Kraft had it in for him. As a performance perfectionist, Carpenter took this rejection as deeply galling, like a narcissistic injury. Sealab was his way of playing hard to get, I suppose, a way of taking all his toys and playing with some other guys also involved in exploration, underwater. Carpenter didn't count on sustaining a grounding injury. But he got one.

I based my opinion of Glenn's retirement on . . .

Sorry, missed that.

And wasn't he in charge of some branch of astronaut training?

Neutral bouyancy training, as NASA liaison with the Navy. NASA ignored his work until Cernan's spacewalk from hell.