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Author Topic:   Lunar plaques on Apollo lunar modules
mach3valkyrie
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Posts: 729
From: Albany, Oregon
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posted 08-02-2015 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mach3valkyrie   Click Here to Email mach3valkyrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any ideas as to why the Apollo 12 lunar module landing gear plaque is different from all the other LM plaques in that it shows no Earth hemispheres?

Jonnyed
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From: Dumfries, VA, USA
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posted 08-04-2015 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jonnyed   Click Here to Email Jonnyed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a damn good question. I spent some time surfing the internet looking for an explanation for this difference. Zero. Zip. Squat.

So having exhausted all the leads on the web, I asked Alan Bean directly. He told me, "I have no idea."

Seems this is a bit of a stumper...

onesmallstep
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From: Staten Island, New York USA
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posted 08-05-2015 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for onesmallstep   Click Here to Email onesmallstep     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If I were Al Bean, I would have answered, "I was supposed to paint them on, but I didn't have time!"

Space Cadet Carl
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From: Lake Orion, MI
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 08-05-2015 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space Cadet Carl   Click Here to Email Space Cadet Carl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Apollo 12 plaque is different from ANY other plaque by not only missing the two hemispheres, but also by having its complete annotation in silver instead of black lettering. I'm looking forward to hearing why this happened.

Captain Apollo
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From: UK
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posted 08-05-2015 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain Apollo   Click Here to Email Captain Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jack Kinzler died last year, so sadly too late to ask the designer. He also designed the flagstaff and Alan Shepard's golf club attachment.

LM-12
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From: Ontario, Canada
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posted 08-05-2015 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was designed that way deliberately according to the Jack Kinzler Oral History interview in 1998.
The next plaque here is Apollo 12. If you'll notice, we looked at the Apollo 11, a very important plaque. You'll notice 12 is kind of bare, just plain. That was done deliberately because we didn't want to make the Apollo 11 plaque seemingly less important.

But this is Apollo 12, and in my case, it's very important, because Pete [Charles C.] Conrad [Jr.] was my next-door neighbor, and he was on that crew as the commander, and I suggested to him that he was going to have a plaque mounted on his ladder by the crews and it would have information on it about their names and all that, would he like to have light-weight copies? This is a thin aluminum light-weight copy of the plaque for 12. He said, "Yes, Jack, I would like to do that, but I want you to make four of those."

So you're looking right now at the fourth plaque, which has been to the moon and back, and it was given to me personally by astronaut Charles Conrad. So I'm quite proud of that.

Captain Apollo
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From: UK
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posted 08-05-2015 05:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain Apollo   Click Here to Email Captain Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting. In the full interview (link is to an edit) does he explain why they went back to the Apollo 11 design? It seems a bit contradictory, though I suppose there are only so many ways to record the same information.

LM-12
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From: Ontario, Canada
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posted 08-05-2015 09:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The interview mentions that four plaques were made. Here is a photo of the flown plaque that was given to Richard Gordon.

It was Robert Gilruth who suggested putting the two hemispheres on the Apollo 11 plaque. They replaced a flag on the plaque, which was the first concept.

LM-12
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From: Ontario, Canada
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posted 02-15-2016 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can see the LM ladder and plaque in this post-undocking photo. It looks to me like there might not be a cover over the plaque to remove.

oly
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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posted 02-15-2016 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is difficult to identify if the Apollo 12 LM has a cover on the plaque in that photo, the cover has a similar reflective surface and shape as the plaque in this Apollo 11 photo.

LM-12
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From: Ontario, Canada
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posted 02-15-2016 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Apollo 11 cover also has a large latch. I don't see a similar latch in the Apollo 12 photo, but I do see a black border, like the plaque.

Paul78zephyr
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From: Hudson, MA
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posted 02-15-2016 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul78zephyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually only the plaques on 13, 14, 15, and 16 are really the same. The 11, 12, and 17 plaques are each unique.

Not sure if everything posted here is accurate but you can at least see all seven plaques on one page.

Paul78zephyr
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From: Hudson, MA
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posted 02-15-2016 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul78zephyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a photograph of the Apollo 11 plaque taken on the moon.

I have not been able to find any pictures of any of the other mission plaques taken on the moon. Does anyone know if any of the other plaques were photographed on the moon?

On edit: I found one of Apollo 17 (not a close up of it). Didn't find any others (yet).

oly
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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posted 02-15-2016 07:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The plaque area is visible in photos of Al Bean descending the LM ladder on Apollo 12. However the detail is not clear enough and shadow area make details hard to see.

I have searched for photos of the plaque cover maybe being discarded on the lunar surface but this area is also shaded in the surface photos of LM footpads.

Was there any evidence on Apollo 11 that the cover was required for protection or was the cover designed more to limit the number of people knowing what the plague inscription was until the unveiling (which seems pointless but possible)?

LM-12
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From: Ontario, Canada
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posted 02-16-2016 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the 16mm footage of the Apollo 16 undocking in lunar orbit, the LM pitches up and you can see the ladder and what looks to me like two darker areas where the two hemispheres would be on the plaque. If those really are the hemispheres, then there was no cover over the plaque.

RocketmanRob
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From: New York City USA
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posted 03-16-2021 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RocketmanRob   Click Here to Email RocketmanRob     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am very familiar with the plaque that was attached to the leg of the lunar module on Apollo 11. Were similar plaques carried for all lunar landing missions?

If so, are pictures available of each one? Curious what each said and what variances there were across them.

Editor's note: Threads merged.

randy
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From: West Jordan, Utah USA
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posted 03-16-2021 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randy   Click Here to Email randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know there were ones on Apollos 13 and 17, not sure about the rest.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-16-2021 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Merging the two threads, you can see the seven plaques above (as clipped from Wikipedia).

Graves
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From: Pearlington MS
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posted 03-17-2021 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Graves   Click Here to Email Graves     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For what it's worth, I have the wrong Apollo 13 plaque at INFINITY Science Center, the one before they said Ken Mattingly couldn't fly.

Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 03-17-2021 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting to think that if Apollos 18 and 19 had flown, Dick Gordon would've been the only astronaut to have his name on two plaques at different landing sites (Apollos 12 and 18).

oly
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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posted 03-17-2021 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While I understand and appreciate why the plaques were included for each mission, I am amazed that NASA included an allocation of time during the surface EVA exercises to address the plaque dedications. Apollo 11 dedication marked a historic event that was viewed worldwide, the culmination of effort put into putting a man on the moon and achieving Kennedy’s challenge.

But the subsequent five successful lunar missions had tight surface activity schedules and goals that required some uncertainty in the planning about how long tasks may take.

Apollo 12 tasks included deploying the color TV, the surface experiments, and the traverse and recovery of Surveyor parts. Apollo 14 had the rickshaw and an ambitious crater wall climb, and the last 3 missions had the deployment and testing of the rover and some ambitious experiments with drills and geologic sites of interest. All things that may take more time than planned.

That the time allocation for the plaque dedication was not allocated elsewhere in the mission timeline is a good thing, because it allowed the focus to be centered on the journey to get there, and by association, on the people involved in getting there. So why then was the dedication of each plaque not included in the photo opportunity shot list? I would think that a photo of each astronaut standing by the plaque would have been a great memento for the crew and the people behind the scenes.

Space Cadet Carl
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Posts: 291
From: Lake Orion, MI
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 03-18-2021 07:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space Cadet Carl   Click Here to Email Space Cadet Carl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To Oly's point, I feel every moonwalker had moments after their missions where they wished they would have taken a few more artistic, non-scientific photos like posing with the plaques. A couple of them regretted not getting a good posed photo of themselves with gold visors up and their faces in full view.

Conrad and Bean were "crazy" enough to think of taking a Hasselblad shutter timer with them for a planned group shot gag-photo with Surveyor 3, but that plan got messed up too because they couldn't find the shutter timer when it was time.

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
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posted 03-18-2021 08:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by oly:
I would think that a photo of each astronaut standing by the plaque
The ladder would be in the way. Not possible to have the plaque large enough and have astronaut in the photo.

Look at the photo of the Apollo 17 plaque that has the astronaut's arms in it. It would have to be zoomed out to include more of the astronaut. The plaque isn't legible as it was.

oly
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From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015

posted 03-18-2021 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am sure that most would be satisfied with an image of the same proportions as this shot from Apollo 17. With a little more time to compose the image I am sure a better quality result could be achieved.

Perhaps a piece of discarded Mylar would work as a photographic light reflector to enhance the lighting.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 48614
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-18-2021 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just quickly playing with the exposure in Phootshop helps clear things up a bit:

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