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Author
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Topic: eBay sniper programs and sniping practices
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Beau08
Member Posts: 159
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 02-03-2012 08:50 AM
   
What cS'ers opinions of eBay sniper programs? If you use one and like it, which one do you use? Also, what is your opinion on sniping? I think it is a logical result of the current eBay rules so one doesn't "show their hand" ahead of time just to be outbid by five bucks with a snipe. Personally I would like to see an RR Auction type ending to auctions over a certain dollar amount and allow previous bidders time to respond to an outbid. Bottom line is until eBay changes their policy, sniping will always be a fact of life.
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PeterO
Member Posts: 399
From: North Carolina
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-03-2012 08:51 AM
I've been both an eBay buyer and seller for over a decade. I don't see anything wrong with sniping programs from either point of view.Most eBay bids are made in the last few minutes of an auction. As a buyer, I don't want to hang around the computer to bid, and placing a snipe and walking away keeps me from getting into a bidding war and spending more than I want to. As a seller, it gives my prospective bidders an opportunity to bid when they're not available at the end of the auction. I use Auction Stealer, which is free for up to three snipes per week. That's plenty for me. |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 02-03-2012 08:53 AM
Like, dislike; agree or disagree, in bidding on an item that's popular, you won't win it without one. That's just reality.Makes me really miss Kim's Astro-Auction. The one I'm most familiar with is esnipe.com. I hadn't heard of that one Peter, thanks. The old snipe program used to automatically run them up without limit (if selected). There was this one guy back in the day who always beat me by the minimum no matter how high I bid. Once I figured out what he was doing, I bid a severely high amount on a $25 item (I mean in the hundreds). Oh he won it. For a lot. He backed off then. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 02-03-2012 08:53 AM
With Ebay's current rules, everyone has the exact same chance, opportunity, and time to win the auction. Sniping prevents an opposing bidder from chipping away at your high bid, which would possibly drive up the cost of the item. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-03-2012 09:20 AM
I've never used a sniping program but always bid in the last few seconds of an auction when possible.Why? To avoid other bidders chipping away at my high bid (which pushes up the eventual price I have to pay if I win), and more importantly to prevent dodgy sellers from bumping up my bid with shill bidding. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-03-2012 10:57 AM
BIDNIP; to avoid telegraphing intent to adversary bidders |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 02-03-2012 11:24 AM
POWERSNIPE, for the reasons already mentioned. I don't think it's unfair to other buyers, because I'm always willing to pay the full amount I snipe with. I usually win, but I can be beaten if an earlier bidder has set a higher limit to his bid, or a more adventurous sniper steps in with a higher limit.The only downside about sniping is for the seller. Sniping discourages bidding wars, so sale prices are often less than they might otherwise be. But sellers have the ability to set reserves, so sniping doesn't keep them from receiving a fair price. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 02-03-2012 03:46 PM
If you travel a lot, like I do, then you can't live without a sniping program. You have to be prepared for the consequences one way or the other, whether you set the limit too low and lose, or set it too high and pay more than you really wanted to. It helps to do your due diligence in setting your limit - how common is the item, what have similar ones been fetching recently, etc. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 02-03-2012 04:46 PM
I very much dislike sniping programs (especially when people abuse them by throwing down more than they'll pay) because it's a very cheap way to win an auction. However, I always manually snipe auctions because otherwise it's totally impossible to win with the large number of people who snipe. Besides, manually bidding is a much better way to spend your money because you know for certain how much the price is up to
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
He backed off then.
I had that same experience with someone who always bid in the same seller's auctions, and always on space shuttle related items. Like, he was paying $50-$90 (after I put my bids in) for $5 items. Yet he still paid for them and continued doing it. Odd... I hope it doesn't give him the false impression that those items are actually worth that much; he'd have a very hard time reselling them. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 02-03-2012 05:08 PM
I'm not following your logic. How is automated sniping a "cheap" way to win, but manual sniping is OK? In both instances the bid is placed in the closing seconds.How do people abuse sniping programs by throwing down more than they'll pay? If they win, even at an inflated bid amount, they still pay that amount. |
Beau08
Member Posts: 159
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 02-03-2012 06:00 PM
Maybe eBay should have a "dutch" style auction as an option. Start the price very high and have it tick down hourly or daily and end when someone jumps in and its over, or it counts down to your "reserve" bid on the final day.  |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 02-03-2012 07:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
I'm not following your logic. How is automated sniping a "cheap" way to win, but manual sniping is OK? In both instances the bid is placed in the closing seconds.
In my opinion, both are cheap (though of because it's so prevalent, you're likely not going to win an auction without doing either.) Although I think manual sniping is less cheap of an option since you're not exploiting scripts to bid at literally the last microsecond. In most other communities where scripts are used to gain an advantage, it's considered cheating and usually against the terms of service. As far as abuse, have you never seen an auction where someone used a sniping program to put a disgustingly large number, then didn't pay it? Or even if they do pay the inflated price, it could give people the false impression that the item is actually worth that much which could lead to price inflation.
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Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 02-03-2012 11:10 PM
It must be me but how can a manually placed bid (be it one minute or one second prior to the end of the auction) possibly be construed as sniping? |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 02-04-2012 12:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
There was this one guy back in the day who always beat me by the minimum no matter how high I bid.
Remember back in the day when bidders' ID's would show up for all to read? I did the same thing you did more than once when I recognized a few people with infinitely deep pockets. I won't bore you with the details, but one started trolling ALL the items I was bidding on and outbid on them. And I mean no matter what I was bidding on. I eventually PM'd him and asked why he was doing this, he actually replied that I had beat him on something important to him once and he was going to teach me a lesson I'd never forget (his words). The guy was well funded and patient. This went on for a while and complaints to eBay or course were ignored. So I started putting comical bids on really stupid items I would never want (my favorite was the $1000 bid I put on a "My Little Pony" lunchbox) and he must have had some software that tracked all my bids and automatically outbid whatever they were. If he actually paid for all these items, I cost him several thousand dollars (I know he paid $1001 for that lunchbox, I confirmed that with the seller afterward). In the end, HE was the one that learned the lesson. He too backed off and I never had issues with him again. I also must admit I have ID'd the 'deep pockets' bidders in the past and have bid up to their limits, making them earn the item they were going for. Back when you knew who you were bidding against, you sometimes got an idea where their maximum would be and could go right up to it. I guess that's one of the reasons you can't tell who you're bidding against anymore. That's one change eBay made that I did agree with. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 02-04-2012 01:02 AM
Though of course, since each ebay user gets a unique code that transfers through different auctions, it's still possible to ID a user if they place feedback. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-04-2012 02:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Spaceguy5:
In my opinion, both are cheap (though of because it's so prevalent, you're likely not going to win an auction without doing either.)
I don't really see the impact on your chances of winning an item. If you're willing to pay more than any other bidder for an item you will always win whether you place your bid manually on the first day, snipe manually in the last few seconds, or use a sniping program of some sort.The only thing it affects is your perception of whether you think you're going to win as you get to the end of an auction and you're the highest bidder. I've watched items for 7 days that sit at $0.99 but which are worth hundreds of dollars. I can fool myself into thinking maybe I'm the only one that spotted this badly-listed treasure because no one has bid on it but I know full-well that 99% of the time there are likely to be anywhere from two to a dozen eagle-eyed collectors who've spotted the same thing I have. Now if I put a $501 bid in on the first day I may think it unfair when the other people all put in their bids in the last second and one of them wins it for $502 but in the end if $501 was the maximum I was willing to bid it makes no difference when I placed that bid. The only impact of sniping is that it could maybe give me the illusion that I was going to win when I never stood a chance. |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 02-04-2012 04:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
The only thing it affects is your perception of whether you think you're going to win as you get to the end of an auction and you're the highest bidder.
Well, not the only thing. When bidding against bidders who don't use sniping services, it helps keep the sale price down.Say that you see an item that you want and it has a bid of $10 on it. You're willing to pay $15. But if you put in a bid for $15 manually, the other bidder will see that he is losing and will up his bid until he's in the lead again. Now the bid is at $16, so you decide what the heck and bid $20. The other guy bids up to $18 until he decides he doesn't want to go any further. You win the auction, but you've paid $19 for the item. With a sniping service, you see the item with a $10 bid and set your bid at $15 in the sniping service. The other guy thinks he's winning at $10, so he let's it stand. As the auction ends, your sniping service swoops in and bids $15. You win at $11. By using the sniping service, you saved yourself $8. That's the benefit. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 02-04-2012 07:27 AM
Sniping doesn't give other bidders the chance to react to your bids, that's the problem. Maybe they would have paid more had they had the chance. That's the problem with it. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-04-2012 07:38 AM
But everyone did have the chance to bid the maximum amount they were willing to pay when they placed their bid, whether it was the first day of the auction or the last.What you're saying is that you'd like time to re-assess how much you think an item is worth based on the way the bidding goes. On eBay you really need to think about it before hand and just bid the maximum you're willing to pay. You usually have 7 days to make up your mind, so you're not exactly rushed to make a decision. I'm not saying everyone bidding at the last minute is ideal, but for the reasons listed above (avoiding people chipping away at your high bid and avoiding shill bidding) it is often the best approach on eBay. |
Besixdouze
Member Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 02-04-2012 10:15 AM
Chris is right. You can't apply the same techniques you might in a regular attended auction with eBay. It's more important to figure out the way bidders operate and then try and exploit that to your own advantage. If that means using sniping software to help win the item then so be it. Many's the time I've sat with my finger poised over the 'increase max bid' tab ready to do just that only to see the bidding go way over what I was prepared to pay in the last few seconds anyway. And when you're doing that in the early hours of the morning in the UK, you soon look for ways to avoid it. Taking time to find out who you're bidding against is just another way to help shorten the odds in your favour. |
yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 02-04-2012 12:49 PM
spaced out is right - just bid the maximum you are willing to bid whenever you want during the listing time and if you win great as it is at or less than you were willing to pay - if you lose there is someone who was willing to pay more. WHEN you bid is up to you and you are the one who decides the strategy - since software and manual sniping is the norm you have to take it into consideration. Nothing unfair about it. |
jam1970
Member Posts: 310
From: Chillicothe, Ohio, usa
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 02-04-2012 08:15 PM
The big problem with placing your highest bid up front is that there are many people out there that know the tricks to seeing how much your high bid is. Even sellers can use other accounts to make sure you are going to pay the maximum amount. This is very easy to do since most people bid in even amounts or just a few cents over the amount. Example would be that if I place a bid of $10.03, another bidder (or the seller with another account)knows that the bidding will be in .50 cent increments. So by bidding just under the even amount — say 9.96, the maximum bid of yours will show up ($10.03) therefore you are being bid up to the maximum of your bid and the shill bidder knows your maximum (by the way shill bidding is against the rules). This happens all the time and you only defense is to bid at the last minute or use a sniping service — sorry but this is the only way to protect yourself. It is bad for both the seller and the buyer. |
Spaceguy5
Member Posts: 427
From: Pampa, TX, US
Registered: May 2011
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posted 02-04-2012 08:20 PM
So you're saying that just because exploiting scripts is the norm, it isn't unfair? Just because eBay is one of the few online auction sites that allow sniping and scripts, it is fair to use them on eBay? I agree that because it's so common, the best way to compete with it is to do it as well. But in my opinion that doesn't make it any less of a problem. Most other timed auctions sites extend the auction deadline to counter sniping, most websites or games I've used forbid using scripts to gain an unfair advantage (which is the whole reason CAPTCHA's exist), and even if you look up Wikipedia's page on auction sniping, there's a list of reasons why it is frowned upon. Just because something isn't against the rules, that doesn't make it ethical. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 02-04-2012 09:02 PM
Again, what is the difference if a computer script places your max bid with 1 second left or you manually enter the max bid yourself with 1 second left? There is no difference! |
cjh5801
Member Posts: 185
From: Lacey
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted 02-06-2012 03:19 PM
I'm having a hard time buying the argument that figuring out how the system works and using it to your advantage is somehow unethical. eBay has the option of taking measures to prevent sniping, as other sites have, but has so far chosen not to implement them.While I can understand the disappointment of newbies who haven't figured out the steps to take in order to counter sniping, the only one who really benefits by prohibiting sniping is the seller. As in the example I gave earlier, without sniping the seller tends to realize a higher sale price. I don't see anything unethical in trying to balance the sale price in favor of the buyer, to the extent possible. As I noted, the buyer can set a reserve to assure at least a fair price. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 02-06-2012 06:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spaceguy5:
if you look up Wikipedia's page on auction sniping, there's a list of reasons why it is frowned upon.
And there is a longer list (on the same Wikipedia page) of reasons why sniping is advantageous for the bidder. Ultimately, sniping is neither unfair or unethical, because everyone has the same ability to place bids via sniping, if they so choose. In fact, if everyone sniped, it would probably be the most fair scenario of all...in essence it would be the same as everyone submitting sealed bids that are all opened simultaneously at the end of the auction. (This is how contractor bids for large multi-million dollar projects are handled...as it's considered the fairest form of bidding. Everyone submits one sealed bid and that's it.) |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-07-2012 02:51 AM
Surely - ethicality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. |
arjuna
unregistered
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posted 02-07-2012 05:04 AM
Fascinating discussion, but I'm really just chiming in to say that p51's story is a riot. Good on ya. |
Steve Procter
Member Posts: 1031
From: Leeds, Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-07-2012 07:04 AM
I can understand what you are saying guys. All good points, well made...But where's the fun in it? |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-07-2012 06:04 PM
Can I get one thing straight? Let's say I'm Bill Gates and I have been bitten by the space-bug. I bid a million dollars for any space item I want. Assuming none of the rest of the bidders can come anywhere close to matching my high-bid, is there any automatic sniping software which can nevertheless outbid me and win the auction by getting a "last split-second" bid in before the eBay software can automatically increase my bid? In other words, can sniping software beat a higher maximum bid? |
jam1970
Member Posts: 310
From: Chillicothe, Ohio, usa
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 02-07-2012 06:41 PM
No it can't, but if Bill Gates makes an early bid of 1 million dollars, the seller can easily make sure that he will pay the full 1 million by shill bidding or even another bidder trying to find his top. This is very easy to do and it is a good reason why sniping is used by many buyers. Early bids will almost always cost you the full amount of your bid — last second bidding is the only way to get a deal. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 02-07-2012 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Surely - ethicality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
You are correct. All the griping won't change anything. Like any form of contest (and make no mistake, that's what an auction is), there will ALWAYS be someone trying to get the upper hand on the other guy. quote:
Originally posted by arjuna:
Fascinating discussion, but I'm really just chiming in to say that p51's story is a riot. Good on ya.
Thanks! Every time I'm reminded of the few items I made that guy pay a lot of coin for, I always chuckle. I can never see or hear anything about the "My little Pony" toy line without thinking of the $1001 I cost that guy. What really surprised me was he still trolled my items after that, but I burned him two more times until he stopped doing it. And oddly, he never PM'd me about it at all. |
MadSci
Member Posts: 226
From: Maryland, USA
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 02-08-2012 05:37 PM
P51 - damn you! I'll not rest 'till you buy back my "My Little Pony" lunchbox for $1002!LOL. I would love to have seen to look on your face when you stuck that one to him! In thinking about it, I suspect that if we all met one day wearing Name Tags with our eBay IDs on them I would get to meet a lot of folks I have dueled with on eBay in the past — and lost. Never really thought abut you guys that way — you bunch of As#%ol#@! Seriously though, sniping is really a great leveler. I lost many an auction to the fact that I felt I had to spend the last few seconds of a given auction putting my kids to bed. I probably lost to someone without kids or with kids who had grown up. Was that a good thing? For that matter, think for a minute about all the eBayers who live outside of North America. Most of the auctions are timed to end during times that are accessible to people on this continent. Not really "fair" to our friends in Europe and Asia is it? I used to manually snipe — and I got pretty good at it, but since discovering esnipe I don't bother and get to spend more time with my Family. Good luck convincing me or them that this is a bad idea. I will always pay up to my max bid, so if you want to pay more, then put your money down and bid that high. Organically or electronically, the money is the same to the seller. And if anyone beats me for that "Sugar-Star My Little Pony" lunchbox tonight — well I won't think ill of you. |
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