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Author
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Topic: Worth completing Apollo 11 autographs?
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bengee
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posted 03-22-2011 10:37 AM
   
I have a Neil Armstrong autograph on a large white page, and I am in a dilemma over whether or not to get the page signed by Aldrin and Collins. It would cost me $1000 to get them both to complete page.Value wise, I am not sure if this cost is worth it (i.e. if the page is worth $1000 now, how much would it be worth signed by all three?) Any thoughts? |
DSeuss5490
Member Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 03-22-2011 11:52 AM
Personally I wouldnt do it. If it were something unique or unusual then it might be worthwhile, but probably not for just a piece of paper. With the high completion fee it might be a break-even proposition, or less. I guess you can always add Armstrong's quote to the sheet for something a little more special than a plain signature. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 03-22-2011 12:36 PM
It depends on how much you have into the Armstrong autograph. If you got it yourself and it didnt cost you much to get, I would do it. Thats the problem with the high completion costs. They suck ALL the value(and alot of the fun) out of doing it. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-22-2011 01:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DSeuss5490:
I guess you can always add Armstrong's quote to the sheet for something a little more special than a plain signature.
I personally dislike those types of after-the-fact additions and would caution "bengee" from tampering with the signed sheet in such a manner. At best, adding the quote would appear to be an attempt to "dress up" the signature. At worst, some might view it as a deceptive attempt to make it appear Armstrong signed next to his quote...in order to try adding value to the piece. To each their own, of course. But I wouldn't do it. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-22-2011 03:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonB:
Thats the problem with the high completion costs. They suck ALL the value (and a lot of the fun) out of doing it.
A faded, yellowed and brittle mat that was crew signed by the Apollo 11 crew sold at auction for $49,000 a few weeks ago. Completion fees are still a bargain, and give the astronaut a small piece of the action. Wait til the news of this auction sale reaches Aldrin. |
DSeuss5490
Member Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 03-22-2011 03:29 PM
Although I agree that the fees, especially completion fees, are high we have a window of opportunity that won't exist ever again. All things considered, the current fees might look like bargains in the years to come. I just don't agree that getting a blank piece of paper signed by the rest of the crew was worth the fee, but most anything else might be, in my opinion. I also think that R&R Lot 433 (the faded crew signatures) was a freak of nature and actually very troubling considering the number of excellent examples that come on the market regularly that sell for significantly less. (Though I probably wouldn't have that opinion if I was the seller of that piece!) |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-22-2011 06:53 PM
I agree that the R&R item was an anomaly, but it still raises the bar some.I normally don't like cuts, but I can think of several nice framing treatments using just a piece of crew-signed blank paper. At least the signatures won't be competing with a photo or type for contrast. |
MikeSpace
unregistered
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posted 03-22-2011 08:26 PM
I don't mind the completion costs, and for me, while I agree they may suck some of the fun out of it, I think the fee also, as mentioned above, puts some of the money where it belongs, with the astronaut.The fact that it's even possible would be the decision maker for me. I think we're lucky two of the three Apollo 11 crew still do signings, and ones where you can get personalizations [or not], missions, etc on [mostly] the item of your choice. |
GerryM
Member Posts: 244
From: Glenside PA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-22-2011 10:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
I agree that the R&R item was an anomaly, but it still raises the bar some.
Exactly how does this raise the bar one inch? Because two extremely uneducated buyers get into a huge bidding war on a item that had terribly faded signatures and even worse it signed on matboard... how does this make it Apollo 11 crew signed items that more valuable in the future to educated collectors who are the backbone of the hobby? |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-24-2011 06:22 PM
Because one of those uneducated guys lost, maybe more than one, and he'll look on an equivalent item, selling for (only) half as a bargain. I'm sure the bidders could see that it was yellowed and faded. That doesn't take much of an education. What I'm saying is there is a line forming for these A-11 things. It will almost certainly raise the bar. Supply and demand. |
DSeuss5490
Member Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 03-25-2011 07:55 AM
When comparing the two Apollo 11 items in the last R&R auction I really thought the faded one would sell for significant less than the Earthrise lot which closed around 4K, and I think a fair price for that piece. While only the NA is a vintage signature it's still very difficult to justify that the faded signature piece is more desirable. I would have pegged its value at about half of the value of the other piece, or perhaps $2500. With the faded signatures on a mat board and the faded photo I don't think there is a space-autograph dealer around who would have asked much more than that price if offered in a retail setting. Its a starter-item and really nothing more.While the Earthrise piece was inscribed at least it has an Apollo-Era Brady Bunch connection! Still, I do think the scarce and desirable pieces will surprise us in the years to come. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-25-2011 07:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
Because one of those uneducated guys lost, maybe more than one, and he'll look on an equivalent item, selling for (only) half as a bargain.
It takes at least two uneducated bidders with very deep pockets to significantly raise the bidding above market value on such a poor quality item. That's not a sustainable formula to truly raise the bar on overall market values. The core of the hobby realizes that much better Apollo 11 signed photos could be purchased for significantly less money. Also, there is no guarantee that the losing bidder will get in another bidding war over his next attempted purchase. He could just as easily find an Apollo 11 item that attracts few bids...and he may walk away with a purchase that is near (or even below) average market value. quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
What I'm saying is there is a line forming for these A-11 things. It will almost certainly raise the bar. Supply and demand.
While there will always be a high demand for Apollo 11 signed items, I suspect that the supply of ignorant-yet-rich buyers isn't particularly high these days. The R&R Auction was a fluke, plain and simple. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-26-2011 12:24 AM
A lot of folks said the same thing about the Christies auction earlier this century "a bunch of rich know-nothings." I suspect we'd see a lot of bargains there nowadays. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-26-2011 01:39 AM
I don't think anybody is going to argue with the notion that prices within the hobby have increased over the past decade. But one should be tracking the average market prices, not the extreme prices, in order to map the trend. For example, if an uneducated person sold an Apollo 11 signed photo for $50, would that be a sign that prices in the hobby are now coming down? Of course not. Likewise, why should one overpriced purchase indicate that prices are now rising? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-26-2011 02:36 AM
I agree with Mark about what should be tracked but in fact I'm not so sure that autograph prices have risen.With the exception of Armstrong I would say most astronaut autograph prices have stayed fairly stable, or even dropped. The signing fees for those that sign have climbed dramatically but the going rate for items signed by most of the astronauts is little different today than it was say 8 years ago. Aldrin is maybe the other exception. When he was signing for $150-250 his autographed photos were selling for similar amounts. Now that he charges $400 or so his autographed items are selling for more like $250-300, so they have gone up. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-26-2011 04:38 PM
Chris, with all due respect, BS. - Alan Bean originals 1998-$95 sq. in. 2009-$195 sq in.
Autographed photos: $15 in 1998... $145 now. - Jim Lovell, Pete Conrad, others $10 in 1998. Lovell $175 now.
- Armstrong WSS $500 1998... $5500 now.
- Cernan $75 in 2004... $175 now.
- Stafford $40 in 2004... $250 now.
- Aldrin $90 in 1998... $400 now.
- Scott $75 in 2004... $195 now.
I could go on... |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-26-2011 05:10 PM
Kim - I see what you're saying, but with the exception of Armstrong you're comparing the astronaut's signing fees over the past decade...not secondary market values. I do not see signing fees as an accurate indication of the true value of a signature, because many collectors will pay whatever the astronauts ask...just for the experience of getting a signature from them. While the experience may add a lot of intrinsic value for the collector who initially obtains the signature, it's not transferable when it comes time to sell it.Right now, the secondary market value for most of these signatures are a fraction of what the signing fees are. Doubly so for personalized items. Try selling a Stafford WSS for $250 on eBay. It won't sell. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 03-26-2011 05:15 PM
Kim they may charge that much now, but can be purchased for much less in many cases.Armstrong: Concur. The only way to buy one in good shape for less is to get very lucky. Cernan: Can easily be purchased for under $100, unpersonalized. Stafford: Can easily be purchased for under $100, in fact I just bought one a few weeks ago. Aldrin: You have to work pretty hard to find one unpersonalized for under $200, but it can be done. Scott: Can be found quite easily, unpersonalized, for under $100. The point is, I'm not sure the retail prices charged by sellers in a niche industry are necessarily good indicators of the current pricing -- yes, some collectors with lots of resources will buy them from these online sellers. That does not make that price the standard, however. Anyway, my point is... if one decides to place one's Apollo 11 crew signed item on the auction block, it is reasonable to expect to get $4,500+ for it. One day you might get $5,000. Another day you might get $7,000. I think it will be a long time before we see another faded mat-signed Apollo 11 item sell for $45,000+. I will be the first to say "I was wrong" if proven so. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-26-2011 05:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Right now, the secondary market value for most of these signatures are a fraction of what the signing fees are. Doubly so for personalized items. Try selling a Stafford WSS for $250 on eBay. It won't sell.
Amen.As for the $5500 Armstrong, I've picked up two uninscribed Armstrongs for less than $1500 each in the last six months. You just have to look.
As for the others, I can't think of one commercially signing astronaut who can't be had at auction for a fraction of their signing fee (two uninscribed Young jump salutes for under $250 each!). That's not to decry the fantastic opportunity to meet these guys and obtain something in person, where the real benefits are completions and personalised items. This is what the premium gets you. You can't just extrapolate from the price an astronaut demands to a theoretical price that someone will pay "after the event", as these are different markets, often with different customers, as evidenced by secondary pricing. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-26-2011 05:38 PM
Kim, as others have pointed out above I'm talking about secondary market rate for signed items, not signing fees. Also, I specifically mentioned a figure of 8 years, as I know prices were way lower in the 'pre-Christies' era when you could buy a stack of signed WSSs as high as your head for a dollar and change and get a few bits of lunar surface flown hardware thrown in for free.  Also, let's be very clear that I'm not criticising the pricing of mail-in signings or meet-and-greet events like Spacefest. Meeting one of these guys in person is priceless, so to speak, and events like these and mail in signings are the only way to get your own items signed by these guys. You're paying for the time of these guys, end of story. I was only commenting on the fact that my own observations tell me that signed items on the secondary market haven't really climbed in the last 8-odd years with the notable exception of Armstrong. I'm pretty sure looking at the Astro-Auction archives would back me up there. Check Bean, Mitchell, Scott, Duke, and Cernan WSS SP prices from 2003 to 2010 and I'm pretty sure there'll be very little change in prices realized over that time. Even rarer stuff like Shepard on the moon SPs, Conrad WSSs and shots on the moon, Irwin WSSs, have all remained pretty stable over the last 8 years, not climbed like Armstrongs. To take it even further I'd argue that in general Apollo 11 crew signed items haven't even climbed on average, which leaves us with a rather ridiculous situation where Armstrong-only signed items (especially WSS SPs) frequently sell for much more than Apollo 11 crew signed items. There have been numerous examples of Armstrong WSS SPs selling for $5000+, but very few Apollo 11 crew-signed items hit this level, with many selling for more like $3000, much like they were 5 to 10 years ago. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-26-2011 06:41 PM
As a retailer these are the prices I have to charge. Some astronauts give me a wholesale discount. Most don't. You don't (generally) buy or sell autographs, Chris, so we're in different worlds. You're correct and I am too. |
Kevin Carrico
Member Posts: 70
From: Salina, Kansas, USA
Registered: May 2004
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posted 03-26-2011 09:34 PM
One thing that is not up for debate is that Man's Greatest Adventure was going to the moon, and landing on it, period. End of Story. Maybe a Mars Landing could change that but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The Legend of these Space Heroes will grow over time and so will the value of their signatures. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 03-26-2011 10:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Carrico:
The Legend of these Space Heroes will grow over time and so will the value of their signatures.
One would think that, using that logic, it would be impossible to find a Charles Lindberg autograph for under 10 grand, but... no problem doing that. Supply and demand. There will likely always be interest in Apollo 11. What about Apollo 12? 13? 100 years from now, the program will still be interesting, but... will people be willing to spend big bucks to buy a Gus Grissom signed litho because it is rare? Will an Apollo 11 signed item drawing $46,000 at auction cause people to come out of the woodwork with similar items, hoping to score big? Possibly. If they do, they could flood the market -- there are a LOT of them out there. Could that drive the price down? Will be interesting to see. Being old and rare does not make things valuable. Being old and rare and in demand does. Your mileage may vary. And, by the way, for Kim, I just want to make it clear that I was not trying to say anything negative about you or your business -- I have been a customer a number of times. I was just pointing out that the market on many of these autographs is not as high as the signing prices are. Your service remains of great value to this hobby -- the ability to get specific items signed, or to get unquestionably authentic autographs, is a great boon to many of us! |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 03-28-2011 01:22 PM
I have to to agree with Chris and Capotec, especially the statement being old and rare does not necessarily mean high value. The much talked about Apollo XI piece is an anomaly. Another example similar to the Lindbergh value can be found in Presidential items. You can find letters hand written and signed by George Washington for a good deal less than the signed faded mat of Apollo XI. Washington did not sign as many pieces as did the Apollo XI crew, they are much older and appeal to a wider group, but they are still available. Check the current and past R and R auctions for pricing. Please excuse this bit of heresy, but what Washington did and accomplished has a greater historical significance than what Neil Armstrong did. The above statement is not meant to denigrate any of the great achievements of the Astronaut corps or the scientists, engineers and other personnel in our space endeavors. The reason I switched from collecting Presidential items to space items was that space has a much more personal connection to me. I lived through the MGA era and was awed by it and feel closer to it than the Revolutionary war. I would rather have a piece from Buzz than say a piece from John Quincy Adams (for the record I would love to have a GEO Washington signed letter). I do feel that going on in the future, prices for astronaut signed pieces may actually drop in 25 -50 years. As the generation that lived through the MGA years dies off, the amount of serious collectors will go down. I know there are a lot of younger folks in the hobby now, but until big events like a Mars landing happens, the inflow of younger collectors will not match us old folks no longer collecting. Additionally, they will not be as personally invested in it as we are. These programs mean a lot to us but I not sure how valued they will be to a child born in 2000. Finally, is it worth going to Spacefest or even getting a piece signed at a mail in signing, YES. You may not be able, at a later date, to get your money out of the piece, but the memory of it is priceless. I would love to go to Spacefest and meet the astronauts I grew up admiring but can not afford to at this point. If I had the money, I would be there even if I got nothing signed. |
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