posted 10-07-2003 01:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by pokey:
Article on China's launch. The taikonauts seem to be wearing Russian Sokol suits

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posted 10-08-2003 03:56 PM               

That is, I have read tidbits here and there that the hardware they are using is either Russian, or based on Russian designs. As for the booster, I understand that may be more of Chinese origin, though some may argue that strides in progress were perhaps achieved from information provided to them by the US. I just thought it might be a good time to for somebody in the know to clarify and share, what it is that China is doing that is uniquely Chinese?

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Warm Regards

Douglas Henry

posted 10-08-2003 04:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
I have been reading the blurbs about the Chinese putting a man in orbit. Could somebody summarize what it is that China is bringing to the table?

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The major technological innovation the Chinese introduce with Shenzhou is the ability to leave its orbital module in orbit for up to five months under autonomous control. The orbital modules can be docked together, so after two flights (assuming the second occurs within five months) they will have a sustainable space station. Furthermore, the docking mechanism is designed so that, if invited, they could dock with the ISS -- instant expansion.

While the Shenzhou has the basic appearance of a Soyuz, the Chinese have apparently* developed all the onboard systems themselves.

posted 10-08-2003 06:23 PM            

Whether they be Chinese , Russian ,American European or any other nationality from this planet - we are all Earth-lings dipping our toes in the vast ocean that is space.

When we do set sail for the stars in earnest - let it be as co-operative Earth-lings who may one day meet the species Star-lings.

No doubt there are some political and military aspects in the Chinese programmes but that is only the same as it is for almost all the other nations so far involved in space missions.

My view of the Chinese is that they don't re-invent the wheel but will observe present users then use it and improve on it. And, in their own inimitable way, they can and do undertake some lateral thinking - like the wooden heat shields in early re entry probes.

Let's hope their first manned mission succeeds and that the ISS members extend a
welcoming hand for them to co-operate on the ISS.

posted 10-08-2003 07:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
Could somebody summarize what it is that China is bringing to the table?

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The ability to go to the Moon or another planet, which no other country can currently do.

FYI - for more on the Chinese hardware go to Encyclopedia Astronautica, a great space resource:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/shenzhou.htm

posted 10-08-2003 10:20 PM               

- Launch time has been officially set at 9:00am Beijing Time Oct 15
- It denied both 90-min and 30-hour (it reported yesterday) flight and confirmed 21-hour duration. 
- Chinese president Hu Jingtao will attend the launch and will talk with taikonaut on board.
- SZ-5 OM will perform only simple works in 6 months. But SZ-6 OM will be significately different. It mentioned and confirmed the story of "space train".

posted 10-09-2003 02:46 AM               

Let's not forget the type of hostile country China still is, that the Tianmen massacre was less than 15 years ago, that they held an American aircraft hostage less than 5 years ago, that they continue to threaten the people of Taiwan (and those that recognize her), and remain a nation that sees the U.S. as, more or less, "in the way".

Cooperation in space will go no further than cooperation on the ground, so let's view dreams of a "World Space Agency", where we all take to the stars in "peace and harmony", in proper perspective.

I will NOT rejoice if the Chinese succeed in landing a man on the moon in the near future.

posted 10-09-2003 08:37 AM               

I wish them good luck. Robert, do you know if CS has any readership in China? Any collectors there? I wonder what the public reaction to this development is over there; do we know if the event is publicised? Do the actors of this feat enjoy any notoriety?

Where do we write for an autograph?

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François Guay
Collector of litterature, notebooks, equipment and memories!

posted 10-09-2003 08:49 AM               

http://www.collectspace.com/directory/directory-china.html

I would encourage others in China (or anywhere for that matter) who might be reading this to register for the Directory if you have not already.

In researching an article about the collectibles surrounding Shenzhou's launch, I am learning that there is a vibrant philatelic collecting community in China already.

The pending launch is receiving a good deal of attention on China's television channels, and tours are being offered to the launch site departing from Beijing. Of course, the identity of the crew of Shenzhou-5 is still confidential.

As for autographs, as soon as there is an official address known for requests, you will see it here...

As a related aside, last night we added to buySPACE an embroidered long sleeve polo shirt with a Shenzhou logo of our design:

http://www.collectspace.com/buyspace/apparel.html#shenzhou

posted 10-09-2003 09:34 AM               

And I thought Collectspace was a fine upstanding site maintaining an element of taste and decorum in it's undertakings..

Now I find your'e selling long SLEEZE polo shirts. :-)

There is enough sleeze around already!

Steve

posted 10-09-2003 09:36 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Procter:
Now I find your'e selling long SLEEZE polo shirts.

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posted 10-10-2003 04:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
what it is that China is doing that is uniquely Chinese?

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That is an interesting question especially if asked to the other spacefaring nation as well.

Considering that the Redstone rocket as well as the Saturn rocket that brought Neil Armstrong to the Moon were essentially German - what was so uniquely American about the Mercury missions? ;-)

posted 10-10-2003 04:25 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by eurospace:
Considering that the Redstone rocket as well as the Saturn rocket that brought Neil Armstrong to the Moon were essentially German - what was so uniquely American about the Mercury missions? ;-)

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posted 10-10-2003 05:57 PM            

And according to the popular www.sina.com website, they reported that handguns, knives and other "defensive weapons" would be stored in the capsule.

On landing, the astronaut "will be able to deal with wild beasts, sharks and other dangerous animals or enemies", the website reported.

What a fun way to end a mission!

posted 10-11-2003 02:42 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
But its not the rocket we're talking about. I don't see any great advantages with the Long March. But the spacecraft, in the case of your question, Mercury, was purely American.

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I just thought the original question (which was not yours) was a bit patronizing. All spacefaring nations have built on pre-existing concepts that they adapted or developed to their own needs.

The Americans built on German rocket technology until the Apollo era, but developed their own spacecraft (manned containers were not in the planning at the time the A4 was conceived).

The Soviets used initial inspiration of the Peenemündians, but then developed their own rocket concepts, and also the spacecraft.

The Chinese rocket is much more homegrown than the Redstone ever was, and in terms of the spacecraft, the Chinese started with the Russian concept and adapted it to their own needs. They added a number of their own features which you mentioned. In that, I have no reason to consider their first manned launch anything else but an impressive achievement.

After all, resolve, perseverance, a concept, and knowing what technology to buy off the shelf and what to built from scratch is what distinguishes a good project management and programme policy from bad one, and this is an achievement on its own.

The Europeans, for instance, certainly have the technology base to do so, but always lacked the determination, the resolve, the concept to get it done. The French had both and tried to get through with it, alas unsuccessfully.

About the conceptual and political lack of the current US space programme a lot of things have been said, and on many we agree, so no need to re-iterate them.

So - kudos to the Chinese for the resolve and determination, for the wisdom to know where to find (or to buy) inspiration and technology, to develop what else they needed, and to get the job done. For a fairly poor country, this is an even greater achievement than for an economically strong country. They can be very proud of it, IMHO.

posted 10-11-2003 02:48 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Rizz:
...the spacecraft will orbit the earth 14 times before landing at a
[b]"pre-selected area", an unnamed space official told the agency.

And according to the popular www.sina.com website, they reported that handguns, knives and other "defensive weapons" would be stored in the capsule.

On landing, the astronaut "will be able to deal with wild beasts, sharks and other dangerous animals or enemies", the website reported.

What a fun way to end a mission!
[This message has been edited by Rizz (edited October 10, 2003).][/B]

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Let's see it the positive way: the shuttle can only land on one and a half predetermined spots, the Chinese vessel (just as the Russians) can land almost everywhere, on land and on Sea.

The Russians, too, had added guns to their equipment after one of their spacecrafted landed way off in the steppe and the cosmonauts watched the wolves approach their camp. Those are real pioneers ....

posted 10-11-2003 11:58 AM            

I own a '84 Mercedes, but while it's a German "automotive program" that got it here, it's unquestionably my car.

posted 10-11-2003 03:26 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Rodina:

For my money, if South Africa or Turkey or Belize or Nepal had the money to buy an off-the-shelf Soyuz, and launched from Baikanour, it would still a space program worth praising.

I own a '84 Mercedes, but while it's a German "automotive program" that got it here, it's unquestionably my car.

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Rodina,

It is not an off-the-shelf-Soyuz. Period.

posted 10-11-2003 04:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Shuttlefan:
I am not familiar with the chinese language, so would be grateful for an explanation of the word taikonauts. What is it´s origin?

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According to "Go Taikonauts" site:

What is taikonaut? Taikonaut is the Chinese counterpart for astronaut and cosmonaut. If China become the third country to send men into space using its own rocket and spacecraft, what are they? Astronaut or cosmonaut? Both. Neither. It is reasonable to create a new word to reflect China's independent manned space capability, just like those for American and Russian.

How is it created? "Taikong" is a Chinese word that means space or cosmos. The resulted prefix "taiko-" is similar to "astro-" and "cosmo-" that makes three words perfectly symmetric, both in meaning and in form. Removing "g" from "taikong" is to make the word short and easy to pronounce. On the other side, its pronounciation is also close to "taikong ren", the Chinese words "space men".

Who use this word first? In May 1998, Mr. Chiew Lee Yih from Malaysia used it first in newsgroups. Almost at the same time, Mr. Chen Lan used it and announced it at "Go Taikonauts" site. They created this word in parallel, which shows it is probably the best candidate for Chinese spacemen.

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posted 10-11-2003 04:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by tegwilym:
Anyone know if this will be shown live on the NASA channel?

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It will not. NASA only broadcasts launches and mission activities for which they have a part.

The Chinese government has granted permission to China Central TV (CCTV) to broadcast the launch live on Channels 4 and 9.

As of this time, no agreement has been reached for the live broadcast of the launch outside of China. My contact at Phoenix TV, the only non-government controlled channel in China, has said that they are still trying to secure rights.

There has been no word yet on what footage will be available live for CNN or other news channels outside of China .

posted 10-11-2003 07:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by eurospace:
Rodina,

It is not an off-the-shelf-Soyuz. Period.

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I didn't say it was. I said that even if it were, it would still be a space program worth admiring.

posted 10-12-2003 05:08 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
It will not. NASA only broadcasts launches and mission activities for which they have a part.

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Thanks for the reply Robert. I'll just monitor the internet and watch it on CNN later that night I guess.

Tom

posted 10-12-2003 11:13 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The Chinese government has granted permission to China Central TV (CCTV) to broadcast the launch live on Channels 4 and 9.

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I spoke too soon, from Newsweek:

"The next day, however, after much infighting, CCTV abruptly canceled the live broadcast “on instructions from the military,” a CCTV source told NEWSWEEK."

posted 10-12-2003 12:37 PM               

quote:

---

What is taikonaut?
How is it created? "Taikong" is a Chinese word that means space or cosmos. The resulted prefix "taiko-" is similar to "astro-" and "cosmo-" that makes three words perfectly symmetric, both in meaning and in form.

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As a tradionalist with a Classical education I have a problem with this term "taikonaut" - not that I'm in a position to change anything!

It all started with "Astronaut" which is a clumsy hybrid word combining "astra" (Latin = stars), with "Nauta" (Greek = sailor). I can't think of any other word which has spliced a Greek and a Latin one together to try and make something "meaningful".
At least "cosmonaut" is philographically correct, being Greek throughout and having broadly the same underlying meaning as astronaut.

Rather than try and create new English equivalents we'd be better off trying to learn the native language word for these Chinese star sailors, so that when we write to them they know what we're on about!

Pedantically yours <LOL>

Paul Bramley

posted 10-14-2003 02:52 AM               

HONG KONG, China (CNN) --China has scrubbed plans to broadcast live the imminent launch of its first manned space flight, state media reports.

posted 10-14-2003 12:26 PM               

Like Claude Raines in Casablanca, I am...... "shocked,..shocked"!!

Yes, I believe that China is interested in space exploration for solely peaceful purposes....about as much as Hitler attended the Berlin Olympics just so he could cheer for Jesse Owens to win the gold.

posted 10-14-2003 12:46 PM               

All space programs -- even ours -- have a military connection. Our first return to the Moon (albeit by robot) after Apollo was a DoD-sponsored mission with NASA participation for good PR. Even so, Clementine resulted in the first real evidence of water on the Moon.

We've had this discussion before, about Wernher von Braun. You can respect the technological progress made by an endeavour -- even praise it -- without agreeing with all its motivations or background. You can either choose to turn your back on China's efforts in space, believing in pre-conceived notions, or you can embrace their initiative and see it for the possibilities it holds for all our futures in space.

There is some logic that the space race contributed in a meaningful way to the fall of communism in Russia. The Moon landing was the first time in recent history that the world unified, regardless of politics. That lead to cooperation in space and a greater understanding of the benefits of a democratic society. What's to say the same thing won't occur with China?

posted 10-14-2003 02:06 PM               

I do believe the vast majority of people involved in China's space program are well meaning individuals who are "true believers"
in the beauty of space exploration.
But let's not lose sight of the fact that the Chinese government is pulling all the strings there, and they are a ruthless bunch.
I'll trust the good intentions of a Chinese space program when there is a either democracy there, or the Chinese government has nothing to do with the program.

Where there is life there is hope, but I won't hold my breath.

posted 10-14-2003 02:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by chet:
Robert, you sound like YOU are living in the days of Casablanca, when China wasn't the behemoth it is today.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that the Chinese government is pulling all the strings there, and they are a ruthless bunch.

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Just as ruthless as any superpower's government.

Let's remember that the US hired a SS Major by the name of Wernher von Braun who claimed until his life's end that he had never thought about the military application of the rockets and only dreamt about flying to space. Same old lie. We can still see preachers of the sort on today's IAF Congresses, so why not buy that from the Chinese. They're probably the only ones who did NOT hire any Nazi's to build their rockets (they had other problems in 1945).

Of course there is a military application, that's a commonplace, like Robert rightly points out. There always is. It means to be illusionist to think that the vacuum the demise of the Soviet regime left would filled by just the United States. There are other competing powers, whether the Chinese or the European Union, and a few other middle powers as well (let's think of India and Pakistan - nuclear powers on their own right - who also develop rocketry, the same Pakistan that put the Taleban in place, with a little financial help from some friends).

In any case: while you guys quarrel in Casablanca, I'll take care of Ingrid Bergman any time ;-)

posted 10-14-2003 03:01 PM               

Do you really believe that a U.S. or EU centralized government would even contemplate, let alone carry out, a massacre of civilians such as took place in Tiananmen Square?

Implying that ruthlessness "comes with the territory" is like saying a law enforcement officer and a criminal are ultimately the same because they both carry guns.

-chet

posted 10-14-2003 03:21 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by chet:
Jurgen, you are right about the military and unsavory aspects of any space program, as is Robert. But comparing different countries' space programs on that basis alone is missing the point, and is as mistaken as your implied assertion that China's government is no more ruthless than any superpowers'.

Do you really believe that a U.S. or EU centralized government would even contemplate, let alone carry out, a massacre of civilians such as took place in Tianmen Square?

Implying that ruthlessness "comes with the territory" is like saying a law enforcement officer and a criminal are ultimately the same because they both carry guns.

-chet

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What I'm saying is that
- not all democracies are the same (and the rate of participation in China's staged elections is certainly higher than in some other states, where not always the one with the highest number of votes wins);
- that a country is a dictatorship or not does not necessarily imply they are agressive towards other nations; in that respect, some democracies are quite competitive, and while China has annexed Tibet, I don't remember any agression against other states in the last 50 years (the US record is different in that, and I don't need to mention recent events). After all, you don't use rockets to exercise repression against your own population - rockets are for those further away.
- Western and Russian services have been implied many times in massacring civilians, whether in My Lai, in central America (been there, talked to witnesses), whether in the occupied territories, in Chechnya, killings of pro-Algerian independence in France in the 60s, etc. Whether you call it "collateral damage", doesn't really make any difference to the victims.

In other words - the situation is a bit more complicated than just black and white, and in terms of rocketry, foreign policy elements are more important than internal policy.

And about the territory: You have never seen any police officers cross the border, get collusive with crime, become corrupt and get involved in drug dealings, extortion, black market, racial violence, murder, whatever? You don't even have to quote US cases (which are many), even my tiny little Brussels suburb has had its case where the judicial police raided the local police HQ to arrest half a dozen cops who had chanced sides. Happens all the time.

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Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies