posted 08-19-2025 06:18 PM               

A few more factoids on Joe Kittinger…

As Tom mentioned, he worked with Dr. Paul Stapp on aerospace medicine research projects. He started out flying "chase" to Stapp's rocket sled test. When you see photos of Stapp's rocket sled runs, you will often see a T-33 jet trainer above and slightly behind – Kittinger.

Another project that Kittinger and Stapp worked on was perfecting the airplane "zero-g" parabola maneuver that has since been used for astronaut training and brief moments of zero-g research. Back then Kittinger and Stapp called the maneuver "sub-gravity" and here is a cover that Kittinger flew on one of those flights:

When the Viet Nam War rolled around, Kittinger, by then an accomplished researcher and project manager with Stapp, could have continued his research flying. But he felt compelled to do the job for which he was trained - be a fighter pilot. He went to Viet Nam, shot down a communist MiG fighter plane, and he himself was shot down. He spent 11 months as a prisoner of war (POW) in the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" POW jail. When the North Vietnamese got word that they had a hero in captivity, Kittinger was subjected to even more torture than usual for Hanoi Hilton inmates.

In 2012, Kittinger served as an advisor and the "capcom" for Felix Baumgartner's parachute jump that broke Kittinger's altitude record.

posted 08-20-2025 09:40 AM               

Two books on the subject are recommended:

• "The Pre-Astronauts: Manned Ballooning on the Threshold of Space" by Craig Ryan
  
• "Touching Space: The Story of Project Manhigh" by Gregory Kennedy

posted 08-20-2025 11:06 AM               

For example, the first cover shown above states that it has been flown and ‘certified’ by Kittinger with his signature and information about the mission, while the other two covers do not mention that they were flown, either in writing, a rubber stamp, or some other method. I believe that just because a cover has writing from the pilot/astronaut/balloonist etc, regarding the mission it isn’t a guarantee that it was flown unless specifically stated.

I’ve seen covers that weren’t flown with hand-written information about the mission and signed by the pilot, so that alone doesn’t guarantee the flown status. Sometimes the cover will have typed information prepared by the collector that starts with ‘Flown aboard/via’ or ‘Carried on’ with a space to provide the pilot, or someone else on the flight, to add information regarding the type of aircraft that the cover was flown on such as HH-3E, Jolly 80/81/87, Helicopter, C-130, etc.

When I prepared covers to be flown the first line that I typed on the cover was ‘Flown on’ so that if it had information that was added, and signed by the pilot, co-pilot, and crew I was more confident that it was flown.

Sometimes there will be a letter sent with the cover stating that it was flown, but unless a direct link between the letter and cover is established it would be difficult to use the letter as authentication. And if the letter is lost or separated from the cover there is no authentication.

posted 08-20-2025 01:00 PM               

I did speak with a couple of helicopter crewmen while on a visit to Patrick AFB (now Patrick Space Force Base) during the late 1980's. While they did confirm that many of the mailed-in covers to their offices of Det. 15 of the 39th Aerospace Rescue & Recovery Squadron stationed at Patrick were put aboard, but not all were indeed flown on the Air Force Jolly Green Giants (CH-3E) as their cachet write-ups may had indicated.

On some prepared carried/flown covers like this in supporting rocket flights down the Cape range, the word "Carried" or "Flown" would be scratched out by a pen or marker. But with so many requests coming in (even overwhelming at times), especially for milestone missions, not every cover could be accommodated in this way. Some covers never found their way onboard, however, the pilots and other flight crewmembers in many cases did indeed fill-them out and signed at the bottom. Bottom line, though, was that some had not been flown despite their title "flown" at top left which had not been marked out.

Those historic flight research covers that we see from time to time, mostly from the 1950/60s, I am hoping were indeed carried by their designated pilots as described.

Others that I have seen and own, as an additional stipulation, have indicated in their own hand on the covers themselves as being carried or flown. Sometimes an insert card would help with more information by the cover carrier, and perhaps better yet, with a provided documentation letter by the pilot or other carrier.

Some of my favorite covers in this category are those that indicated where they had been stored or placed at during the carried event, how many, and with other provided details and if possible even photos if that would help.

posted 08-20-2025 01:23 PM               

You also have to remember that for these pilots, rocket personnel, etc. it was NOT their job to carry these, nor did they know and/or care about the provenance associated with the items. They were doing a "favor" for a collector who asked.

Having said that, Barbara Baker did have the foresight to ask the person carrying the cover ( or person processing the carried cover) to write a statement on the stuffer card.

That said, I have some stuffer cards stating they were flown but do not have the actual cover as they somewhere along the way got separated.

posted 08-20-2025 03:53 PM               

I would agree if there were no covers signed that stated "carried" there is a question of it being carried, in this case I would say it is likely that the Heritage cover was flown.

Same with Dennis' F-94C cover. It doesn't say "carried" anywhere but has characteristics of being carried, pilot fills in flight details, postmark from flight location but a later date, no proof it was flown but could certainly be...

posted 08-21-2025 09:56 AM               

Regarding Apollo 15 Moon covers as mentioned in the prior post -- The original or first batch of Sieger covers were those 100 that Scott mailed to Horst Eiermann for Hermann Sieger in Stuttgart, Germany. Those first moon covers had the hand written notation at top left as being onboard the Falcon at the Hadley-Apennine, Moon, July 30-August 2, 1971.

Having talked with Scott and Worden together on the issue of another or second batch of those Sieger covers, once the crew were heading for the moon, Scott had said that he transferred the covers from his suit leg pocket over to the LM-Falcon and were stored inside Falcon for lunar surface landing.

At top left of the crew's personal 300 Sieger covers (or 298 of them), it reads: "This envelope was carried to the moon aboard Apollo 15 #_____ of 300 to the lunar surface in L.M. "Falcon," which is another story within itself.

The crew signed certifications for the 300 did originally indicate "orbit of the moon,"
however, that had been changed, I believe by Scott himself, by crossing over that phrase and writing-in by hand "landing on" the moon.

The insert card for each of the 300 series stated that that moon covers were "stowed aboard the spacecraft in a sealed fireproof packet and carried to the lunar surface in LM "FALCON..."

posted 08-21-2025 09:57 AM               

I do not believe these covers, or indeed the missions behind them, are astronautical. They, in my opinion, are purely aeronautical. They have nothing to do with space and everything to do with atmosphere.

In my opinion Joe Kittinger was not a pre-astronaut, but an advanced aeronaut.

posted 08-21-2025 12:58 PM               

Using words such as "cosmic-rays" and "astronomical" does not automatically attach astronautical connotations to the subject. Neither Victor Hess, nor Tycho Brahe can seriously be thought of in astronautical terms.

posted 08-21-2025 10:19 PM               

During his years in the Air Force, he [Joe Kittinger] worked closely with Dr. John Paul Stapp on safety systems for aircraft and space systems. As part of Dr. Stapp's team he worked with companies including the David Clark Company to help develop early space suits, life support, egress and safety systems.

Tasked with the question, "Can man survive in space?", Joe was instrumental in the Man-High and Excelsior programs where he and Dr Stapp's team studied effects of flat spin and partial pressure suits in near space. On his 34th parachute jump, Joe Kittinger set a record for an assisted free-fall from near space wearing the recently developed pressure suit, stepping from a Stratospheric balloon platform and free falling with a drogue parachute from 102,800 feet (31.3 kilometers). Joe reached a speed of 614 mph being the first person to see the extreme curvature of Earth from such an altitude. His record held for 52 years.

Dr. Stapp and Col. Joseph Kittinger's work on Stargazer and Excelsior laid the groundwork for the Gemini and Apollo space programs, high altitude flight, egress and space safety.

posted 08-21-2025 10:34 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by yeknom-ecaps:
Eddie, if you still have all the Harry Gordon covers your Dad had gotten, do all the flown covers have "carried" or "flown" in the cachet?

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Ken, yes its always good to see you and talk with you about space covers! The only rocket plane covers I found in dad's collections...at least so far...are an X-2 flown by Everest and a D-558-II Skyrocket flown by Bridgeman. I know there were more and I still may come across them. I still have thousands of covers to go through,. He also may have sold them himself before he passed away.