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T O P I C R E V I E WASCAN1984Happy New year everyoneIf you attached some kind of external booster powerfull enough to escape from earth orbit. Could an orbiter survive and make it to to the moon. WAWalshHomer Hickam seeemd to think so and wrote an interesting (far-fetched) book about the adventure mjanovec quote:Originally posted by ASCAN1984:Happy New year everyoneIf you attached some kind of external booster powerful enough to help the escape from earth orbit. Could an orbiter survive and make it to to the moon. Given a powerful enough booster, I would think you could send almost anything to the moon...if only on a circumlunar flight. I suspect the Shuttle's life support systems don't care whether they are in earth orbit or traveling between the earth and the moon.The problem becomes more complicated if you want to get into lunar orbit (and get back home again). You need propulsion to slow down the shuttle to acheive lunar orbit and propulsion to escape orbit to get back to the earth.Also, I have no idea if the Shuttle's current thermal protection system would be suitable for the earth re-entry at 25,000mph. I supect it would need to be upgraded...if not completely re-designed. An ablative heat shield on the shuttle similar to the Apollo capsules would probably be impractical due to weight (and other design considerations, such as aerodynamics flows over the shuttle surface). But again, given a big-enough booster, anything might possible. However, it might be cheaper to build Orion from scratch than it would be to prepare the Shuttle for such a mission.I assume your question wasn't about landing the shuttle on the moon...in that case, the answer is a big definite NO. [Edited by mjanovec (January 02, 2007).]collocationRealize this may have been covered, but could the Gemini spacecraft configuration have orbited the moon?ThanksmjanovecGemini was considered as a possible first craft to orbit the moon. The topic was discussed in greater depth here: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000405.html Dwayne DayI think that there are a few good websites on the "shuttle to the moon" question. The simple answer is that it is way too heavy for such a mission. You would not want to carry all that unnecessary weight, such as the wings and tail.As for lunar Gemini, I've been intrigued by this for awhile and may actually do some research on it. I have a bunch of different reports on it. The primary method that was being investigated involved using a Martin Transtage (a military upper stage flown on the Titan III) to boost a Gemini to the Moon and back. I think that there were numerous proposals for a flyaround, orbiting, and even a lander.The big question is how serious any of the proposals were. NASA was throwing a LOT of money at studies back in the 1960s. And contractors are willing to say that anything is possible, just give them money. So the presence of studies does not mean that these were viable proposals that people in power really considered. I think that the answer to this question is not to be found in the contractor studies, but in memos and internal documents and interviews with the people involved.I think that the likely answer is that although the idea was considered, there was a lot of justifiable opposition at the senior levels of NASA. Understand that the nation's available aerospace engineering talent was finite and it was reaching its limits. The US was building a lot of aerospace stuff back in the 1960s and it did not make sense to spread money, talent, and political capital among two major projects--Apollo and lunar Gemini. You have to pick your horse and bet on that one.John Charles quote:Originally posted by Dwayne Day:...As for lunar Gemini, I've been intrigued by this for awhile and may actually do some research on it...DDay,I really hope you do you usual thorough and informative job writing on the lunar Gemini topic. In particular, any light you could shed on the story that Pete Conrad was pushing it would be appreciated, especially in light of the fact that, at that time (mid-1965) he was a rookie in training for his first flight (for which Slayton campaigned for a launch slip to let the crew get some additional training)--not usually how one might describe a power-broker.Of course, I guess if anyone had enough moxie to do it, that would be Conrad...------------------John CharlesHouston, TexasASCAN1984This is a very interesting especially the part about Pete conrad. My theory on the shuttle to the moon area was that the Shuttle could get there. I never thought about the speedss nessesary to survive re entry or the weight the wings and tail might cause. I completely agree with John Charles that it would be wonderfull to see more research done on the Gemini and pete conrad parts. How cool would it be to find out the truth. Dwayne Day please keep pushing away at this for us. It would mean so much Gareth
If you attached some kind of external booster powerfull enough to escape from earth orbit. Could an orbiter survive and make it to to the moon.
quote:Originally posted by ASCAN1984:Happy New year everyoneIf you attached some kind of external booster powerful enough to help the escape from earth orbit. Could an orbiter survive and make it to to the moon.
If you attached some kind of external booster powerful enough to help the escape from earth orbit. Could an orbiter survive and make it to to the moon.
Given a powerful enough booster, I would think you could send almost anything to the moon...if only on a circumlunar flight. I suspect the Shuttle's life support systems don't care whether they are in earth orbit or traveling between the earth and the moon.
The problem becomes more complicated if you want to get into lunar orbit (and get back home again). You need propulsion to slow down the shuttle to acheive lunar orbit and propulsion to escape orbit to get back to the earth.
Also, I have no idea if the Shuttle's current thermal protection system would be suitable for the earth re-entry at 25,000mph. I supect it would need to be upgraded...if not completely re-designed. An ablative heat shield on the shuttle similar to the Apollo capsules would probably be impractical due to weight (and other design considerations, such as aerodynamics flows over the shuttle surface). But again, given a big-enough booster, anything might possible. However, it might be cheaper to build Orion from scratch than it would be to prepare the Shuttle for such a mission.
I assume your question wasn't about landing the shuttle on the moon...in that case, the answer is a big definite NO.
[Edited by mjanovec (January 02, 2007).]
As for lunar Gemini, I've been intrigued by this for awhile and may actually do some research on it. I have a bunch of different reports on it. The primary method that was being investigated involved using a Martin Transtage (a military upper stage flown on the Titan III) to boost a Gemini to the Moon and back. I think that there were numerous proposals for a flyaround, orbiting, and even a lander.
The big question is how serious any of the proposals were. NASA was throwing a LOT of money at studies back in the 1960s. And contractors are willing to say that anything is possible, just give them money. So the presence of studies does not mean that these were viable proposals that people in power really considered. I think that the answer to this question is not to be found in the contractor studies, but in memos and internal documents and interviews with the people involved.
I think that the likely answer is that although the idea was considered, there was a lot of justifiable opposition at the senior levels of NASA. Understand that the nation's available aerospace engineering talent was finite and it was reaching its limits. The US was building a lot of aerospace stuff back in the 1960s and it did not make sense to spread money, talent, and political capital among two major projects--Apollo and lunar Gemini. You have to pick your horse and bet on that one.
quote:Originally posted by Dwayne Day:...As for lunar Gemini, I've been intrigued by this for awhile and may actually do some research on it...
DDay,I really hope you do you usual thorough and informative job writing on the lunar Gemini topic. In particular, any light you could shed on the story that Pete Conrad was pushing it would be appreciated, especially in light of the fact that, at that time (mid-1965) he was a rookie in training for his first flight (for which Slayton campaigned for a launch slip to let the crew get some additional training)--not usually how one might describe a power-broker.Of course, I guess if anyone had enough moxie to do it, that would be Conrad...
------------------John CharlesHouston, Texas
Gareth
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