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Forum:	Patches & Pins
Topic:	USS Hornet Apollo recovery pinbacks

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Your Reply: HTML is ON UBB Code is ON Smilies Legend	[QUOTE]Originally posted by kosmo: [B]An update to the post above, showing the Apollo 12 Scheller Apoian Specialties buttons that were available at the time of the Apollo 12 USS Hornet recovery and the Hornet pouch that was given out as a commemorative item onboard the ship. I have also shown the extensive perimeter print of the "Hornet Plus Three" Apollo 12 variation. <center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks01-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks01.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a> <a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks02-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks02.jpg" width="400" height="533" border="0"></a> <a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks03-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks03.jpg" width="400" height="405" border="0"></a></center>[/B][/QUOTE]
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<table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="600"><TR><td bgcolor="#000000"><TABLE BORDER=0 cellpadding=4 border=0 cellspacing=1 WIDTH="100%"><TR bgcolor="#660000"><TD COLSPAN=2><CENTER>T O P I C     R E V I E W</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>HistorianMom</TD><TD>There are several versions of the Apollo 12 Hornet recovery pins with the "Three More Like Before" slogan. Does anyone have a photo of a vintage one to identify the originals from the replicas?</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>In my opinion, both the Apollo 11 "Hornet Plus Three" stark white background with black printing, no manufacturer's mark and Apollo 12 "Hornet, Three More Like Before, Apollo 12" dark blue background with yellow printing, no manufacturer's mark, are counterfeits.The real things: There are two button variants of the Apollo 11 "Hornet Plus Three" they have an almost ivory colored background with dark blue printing. One variation has dark blue perimeter print "Made in Hawaii By Scheller Apoian Specialties." This is the button that the Apollo 11 astronauts wore and you see pictures of in quarantine. The other variant of the Apollo 11 "Hornet Plus Three" button has dark blue perimeter print "Official Button Worn By The 3 Astronauts On Their Return From Lunar Landing July 24 1969 Made In Hawaii By Scheller Apoian Specialties." This was released at the same time as the Apollo 12 "Hornet, Three More Like Before, Apollo 12" button (with a more orange colored printing and white perimeter print "Made In Hawaii By Scheller Apoian Specialties"), probably as part of a press informational packet. This is by far the rarest of the Apollo 11 buttons, in 10+ years I have been collecting, I have only seen one. The Apollo 12 "Hornet, Three More Like Before, Apollo 12" buttons are quite uncommon also. </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>HistorianMom</TD><TD>Thanks!</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>An update to the post above, showing the Apollo 12 Scheller Apoian Specialties buttons that were available at the time of the Apollo 12 USS Hornet recovery and the Hornet pouch that was given out as a commemorative item onboard the ship. I have also shown the extensive perimeter print of the "Hornet Plus Three" Apollo 12 variation.<center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks01-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks01.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks02-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks02.jpg" width="400" height="533" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks03-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks03.jpg" width="400" height="405" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>There is also another variation of the “Hornet Plus Three” button that is 3 inches in diameter (as opposed to 2.25 inches) that has Buzz Aldrin's autograph across it. The printing is a lighter blue than the original and the background color is a bit darker ivory color. The perimeter print has "Copyright Buttons Made in Hawaii by Scheller Apoian Specialities" and came with either a chrome or gold colored pin-back.There was also a 2.25 inch Apollo 11 button, purple-ish and orange in color, with perimeter print "Made in Hawaii by Scheller Apoian Specialties" and also came with either a chrome or gold colored pin-back. Both of these buttons probably came out after the Apollo 11 recovery, I have never seen them offered with the “Hornet Plus Three” recovery button.<center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks04-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks04.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks05-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks05.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks06-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks06.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks07-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks07.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>Amendment to the above observation "Hornet, Three More Like Before, Apollo 12" dark blue background with yellow printing, no manufacturer's mark, are counterfeits."Recently there has been two of the Apollo 12, Three More Like Before, buttons that have been available with dark blue background and yellow printing, but not orange. They both have the correct perimeter print. One had the correct chrome pin-back and the other the gold pin-back. Again I think these buttons were produced after the Apollo 12 recovery (not for it), so may have been printed with different color inks and a pin-back variation.<center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks08-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks08.jpg" width="400" height="401" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks09-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks09.jpg" width="400" height="382" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>Just a display of Apollo 11 and 12 recovery pin-back buttons, Made in Hawaii By Scheller Apoian Specialties, that I know to exist to date.<center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks10-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks10.jpg" width="400" height="533" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>David Carey</TD><TD>A recent eBay pickup contained a first-run Apollo 11 "Hornet Plus Three" button with 'Made in Hawaii By Scheller Apoian Specialties' edge marking. All looks good there.The auction lot also had an Apollo 12 "Three More Like Before" button - clearly vintage, brass pin, no edge marking, and yellow/orange-yellow lettering. The button looks like Tom's (Kosmo) above-pictured 'Apollo 12 Recovery' framed example from the front but there is no manufacturer printing along the perimeter and no picture of the rear/edge of Tom's for comparison. Is this an original Apollo 12 Hornet recovery button or a vintage counterfeit/copy of some sort?<center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/davidcarey/apollo_12_three_more_like_before_button01-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/davidcarey/apollo_12_three_more_like_before_button01.jpg" width="400" height="389" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/davidcarey/apollo_12_three_more_like_before_button02-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/davidcarey/apollo_12_three_more_like_before_button02.jpg" width="400" height="389" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>I was watching that group of Hornet pinbacks on eBay too! I have always assumed that if these pinbacks didn't have the perimeter print "Made in Hawaii By Scheller Apoian Specialties", that they were counterfeit. Everything that I have acquired from people that participated in the recovery of Apollo 11 and Apollo 12, have had that perimeter print. That being said, the "Three More Like Before" pinback looks really good, except for the lack of perimeter print.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>David Carey</TD><TD>Thanks, Tom. I had the sense the manufacturer's mark should normally be there but everything else looked correct to the extent I understood what to look for.This archived eBay <A HREF="https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/authentic-hornet-plus-three-more-like-3775857482" TARGET=_blank>auction</A> seems to be one of the up-thread examples of what's thought to be a post-recovery version. Perhaps it's also the bottom example in your case. Edge marking clear in the last photo. An Apollo 12 recovery <A HREF="https://gspawn.com/en-ca/products/uss-hornet-apollo-hat" TARGET=_blank>cap and pin set</A> for sale by the Pawn Stars folks also shows edge marking on the pin(s)</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>David, my post recovery example has the gold back, and you can see (barely) the perimeter print in the 7 to 8 o’clock position. I was noticing your example even has the orange printing of the originals. <center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks11-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks11.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>Liembo</TD><TD>There are several printing defects that are consistent between the versions with and without the edge markings, which leads me to believe that both are from the same manufacturer. These defects are tiny "dings" in the letters. <center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/liembo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks01-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/liembo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks01.jpg" width="400" height="191" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>kosmo</TD><TD>Three photos of Apollo 12 "Three More Like Before" recovery button, recovery (left) and post recovery (right), showing front, back and perimeter. David, are you sure that the perimeter printing is not hiding on there, sometimes it isn't very apparent, and your button is not perfectly centered, so it maybe hiding close to the metal backing.<center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks12-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks12.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks13-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks13.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks14-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/kosmo/uss_hornet_apollo_recovery_pinbacks14.jpg" width="400" height="110" border="0"></a></center></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>David Carey</TD><TD>Interesting observations on the defect repetition, Liem. I suppose someone copying an original could pick up the same flaws in making a reproduction but still a great point.Tom, I've looked again (and again, and again...) with a loupe and have found no perimeter markings. If they are there, they are hidden inside of the crimped edge. Still, everything else is an exact match front and back versus your Apollo 12 recovery example. Perhaps misalignment, artwork layup error, print smear, etc., is behind the lack of expected markings. The fact that this lot was paired with a genuine and correct vintage Apollo 11 Hornet button also suggests originality but of course is no proof.Thanks for all the inputs!</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>davidcwagner</TD><TD>Liem, great detective work on the "nicked" letters. Possible the company underestimated the demand for Apollo 11 pinbacks. The company then produced as many Apollo 12 pins as possible and skipped the rim printing. Have two similar to the above with slightly different blue backgrounds and yellow to burnt orange. The Apollo 11 and the two Apollo 12 pins part of a collection that include Apollo 11 Cruise book, Apollo 12 cap, Apollo 11 and Apollo 12 Captain's covers. and certificates. </TD></TR></TABLE></td></tr></table>

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