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Author
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Topic: Aurora Flown(?) Money
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Leon Ford
Member Posts: 309
From: Shreveport, LA, United States
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-04-2003 11:33 AM
   
In the upcoming Aurora auction there are 8 lots of astronaut signed one dollar and two dollar bills. (Lots 116, 410, 430, 456, 471, 492, 799, and 840) Does anyone on the message board have any information on these items? Are they flown? The question mark in the description raises a doubt. It says it comes with a certificate of authenticity, but what does the certificate authenticate?Leon |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 11-04-2003 02:25 PM
Russel Still's "Relics of the Space Race", 3rd edition contains a list of all $ 1 and $ 2 bills, that were flown with John Glenn on his Mercury flight.
The number of the Glenn sigend bill offered by Aurora is not included in this list.Take care,
Walter
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connoisseur
New Member Posts:
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posted 11-04-2003 07:39 PM
Walter - I concur that the number of the Glenn bill is not as listed in Russ' book. However, he is listing only the 52 bills put onboard by Gunter.I ran the MA-6 bill (and the other bills)because it had the look of the other known flown bills and because the pedigree made sense. If the astros had flown the bill (s) as a favor for their financial advisor, there is no reason for their existance to have come to light before this since, as I said in my description, these (and the other) bills were found sealed in his safe deposit box at the time of his death. They are a previously unknown and unrecorded discovery. I included the question mark in my description to hold open the possability that I was wrong in my conclusion, but ran the bills because I felt the evidence was in favor of their having been indeed flown. The coa's will be from the advisor's daughter stating that the bills were found in her father's safe deposit box at the time of his death. Each flight was in a seperate envelope with exterior notations as to the flight, autographs and other information. I hope that this info will shed some light on this currency and cause you to rethink your conclusions. Michael Orenstein
President, Aurora Galleries International |
Leon Ford
Member Posts: 309
From: Shreveport, LA, United States
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-04-2003 08:15 PM
I still don't see the evidence that the bills were flown. Will the COA from the daughter state that her father told her the bills were flown or give some other information about why she thinks the items were flown? Just because each bill was in it's own envelope doesn't have anything to do with it being possibly flown. He might have just put it in an envelope when the astronauts signed the bill. Leon
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cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 11-05-2003 05:44 AM
Michael - I did not want to come to a conclusion. I just encouraged fellow collectors to keep Gunter's list in mind when deciding for themselves, whether those bills were flown or not. Most likely only the astronauts' PPK lists would allow a final decision.
Unfortunately all PPK lists are still treated as the astronauts' privacy - even if the astronaut passed away years ago. Times are changing. Today public and historical interest is considered greater than an individual's privacy. Thus I would suggest NASA to declassify all PPKs not later than 40 years after the space mission. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-05-2003 08:05 AM
I do not believe a formal PPK was carried on any of the Mercury flights. Does anyone here know when the first formal PPK was manifested? [This message has been edited by Robert Pearlman (edited November 05, 2003).] |
Leon Ford
Member Posts: 309
From: Shreveport, LA, United States
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-05-2003 07:52 PM
I'm sorry that Aurora hasn't had a chance to answer my question about the evidence that these bills flew. I think there is a real question about them flying on a mission. I would welcome any solid evidence that they flew on any mission. Just finding them in a safe deposit box and having the bills signed by mission crew really doesn't prove they were flown on a mission.Leon |
connoisseur
New Member Posts:
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posted 11-06-2003 12:26 PM
Guys - I can't prove the bills were flown, nor can the consignor. Her coa will state that she found them in her father's safe deposit box at the time of his death.
There is concievably no reason other than their having been flown to have saved them so carefully since in the 1960s, only the flown factor would have made them valuable. The autographs were relatively worthless at the time.
Leon's request for "proof" is ridiculous on the face of it since had there been proof, I would have been presented in the lot description.
When I wrote the description, I put a "?" after flown to indicate that there was a question as to that point. It is up to you, the collectors, to decide if they were. I deliberately didn't take sides. I just presented the available information. Unless the astros jump in to resolve the question, I don't see any way to "prove" an answer one way or another (and why would you take their word for it? They can't provide "proof" either)
Regards...Michael |
Leon Ford
Member Posts: 309
From: Shreveport, LA, United States
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-06-2003 05:32 PM
Amazing.It's sad that items are being sold to collectors as flown items with documentation like this. Be careful what you bid on this weekend. Leon
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Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 11-06-2003 07:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by connoisseur:
Leon's request for "proof" is ridiculous on the face of it...
Unbelievable that a prospective customer would be addressed this way. Inexcusably rude in my opinion. |
Rizz
Member Posts: 1208
From: Upcountry, Maui, Hawaii
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-06-2003 08:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Ford:
I still don't see the evidence that the bills were flown.
There is no evidence. None exists.
quote:
Originally posted by connoisseur:
Leon's request for "proof" is ridiculous on the face of it since had there been proof, I would have been presented in the lot description.
Thats pretty clear to me. No disrespect intended.
There is a very high probability however, based on the information at hand,
and I believe that it should be treated as such. If someone is looking for a documented flown item, this isn't it. Just my 2 centavo's. Rizz
[This message has been edited by Rizz (edited November 06, 2003).] |
NC Apollo Fan
Member Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 11-06-2003 10:26 PM
I see no proof, nor do I see even a preponderance of evidence that these were flown. The thought that they might have flown because they were kept safe all of those years does not make sense to me. If they were kept in a safe deposit box BECAUSE they were flown then logic would follow that the decedent would have taken enough care to somehow label them as such. If he stored them knowing that they had value then he likely would have labeled them for that same exact reason. A simple envelope marked 'flown' or a letter would have sufficed.My guess is that he felt no explanation was necessary: they were bills signed by astronauts. Occam's razor. I would speculate that he asked them to sign the bills because his involvement was on the financial side of the Apollo program. If we found a signed beta patch in a safe deposit box would we assume that it had 'likely' flown? Still, perhaps they did fly - and if so then someone might walk away with a very good bargain. The problem is that they will never know if they got a bargain or not. Those are my thoughts anyway. Jonathan |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 11-07-2003 08:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NC Apollo Fan:
I would speculate that he asked them to sign the bills because his involvement was on the financial side of the Apollo program.
I think you are probably right about that. |
Rizz
Member Posts: 1208
From: Upcountry, Maui, Hawaii
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-10-2003 01:36 AM
Interesting results in the flown(?) money catagory.Lots 492 ($1,700) & 799 ($1,000) were up there. Looks like everyone one else got a killer deal as well. |
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