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Author
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Topic: Had Apollo 1 flown, what of its backup crew?
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Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-11-2009 10:26 PM
   
If Apollo 1 had succeeded, is it likely that none of the backup crew would have flown in space? This would have been a first for NASA during the early stages of a program. It did happen at the end of Gemini. |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 08-12-2009 08:50 AM
Not sure if I understand the question. Certainly, for the original back-up crew I do not see a problem. For the subsequent crew, Schirra had already flown twice. As to Cunningham and Eisele, my impression has always been that they got into trouble with management due to their support of their commander during the Apollo 7 mission and that problem would not have arisen if Apollo 1 flew. Presumably, even if Wally retired, Cunningham and Eisele would have cycled into the next assignment. It borders on the impossible to envision Kraft/Gilruth/Slayton et al. sidelining two members of the third class without a mission. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-12-2009 09:44 AM
It's quite possible that Schirra, Eisele and Cunningham would have been broken up as a crew after the successful Apollo 1 mission by Grissom's crew. Schirra was by some accounts "burnt out" by the time Apollo came around, and had somewhat alienated his superiors, first by bitching and moaning about Apollo 2 (until it was canceled), then over being assigned to a backup role. I remember reading somewhere a quote by Schirra much later in life where he doubted he would have flown a third mission had the Apollo 1 fire not happened. I suspect Deke Slayton's plan was for an "encouraged retirement" for Schirra after Apollo 1.It's possible that Eisele and/or Cunningham could have been assigned to a later Apollo crew together or separately, but Deke seems to have had Apollo Applications in mind for them down the road, from what I've read. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-12-2009 10:34 AM
That's what I thought too. I got the impression that Slayton never thought of Eisele and Cunningham as a lunar crew. Since the first 5 or so, Apollo missions had crews and even back-ups, I can see them being transfered to Apollo Applications. Schirra's actions seemed to have hurt them going back to Apollo 2. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 08-12-2009 12:33 PM
Regarding Schirra's recollection of events and his chances of flying, his direct words can be found on P. 202 of our book "In The Shadow of the Moon." Only place I know where Wally ever told that story on record - a meeting with Shepard, Slayton and Grissom, where Schirra was told he would never fly in Apollo. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-12-2009 04:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
I got the impression that Slayton never thought of Eisele and Cunningham as a lunar crew.
Out of curiosity, where did you get this impression (an honest question... not leading one way or another).As an ARPS grad, I would think that Eisele would have rotated into a CMP slot on a prime crew next (Apollo 10 -- as it ended up being called, although it might have been called something else if the Block I spacecraft had flown without incident), with a later assignment as a mission CDR depending upon his performance. Cunningham would have presumably been in the running for an LMP slot on Apollo 10 or 11. The challenge is, if Apollo 1 had flown, then all subsequent events would have changed -- possibly significantly -- from the way they unfolded in actuality. What if one of the Block 1 spacecraft missions had resulted in a loss of crew during a mission? Any number of other things could have gone wrong. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-12-2009 05:07 PM
From "Deke" (with Michael Cassutt):(Page 166-167, referring to the early 1966 time period.) "I had put another crew in training for the second manned Apollo without making a public announcement. Wally Schirra would be the commander, with Donn Eisele and Walt Cunningham as the senior pilot and pilot. It wasn't a crew I planned to use on lunar landing missions. Wally was making noises about retiring, and I figured to move Donn and Walt over to Apollo Applications." |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-13-2009 12:02 AM
Thanks Delta, I was going to refer to Slayton's book as proof that Slayton had non-lunar plans for Donn and Walt. I wonder why Schirra was told that he would never fly on Apollo. I guess it was easier to slide the backup crew into Apollo 7 that to create a new flight rotation. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-13-2009 05:36 AM
Al Bean was moved to Apollo Applications as well, and he walked on the moon. I could definitely be wrong on this, but just because you were in the Apollo Applications office did not mean you were on the "second string" or were unavailable for assignment to a lunar mission. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-13-2009 09:20 AM
I think Bean was placed on the Apollo 12 crew in large part thanks to Pete Conrad, after the death of C.C. Williams. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 08-13-2009 09:58 AM
After reading this topic before going to bed last night, I had a dream... Apollo 1 flew successfully, and the rest of the A, B, C etc. missions flew as originally planned, except that there were hardware problems on each one that led to subsequent ones being delayed. The Russians orbited the Moon before the US was able to get there. We didn't make it before the end of the decade. There was one manned US landing and then Nixon cancelled the program! Alternate reality! I also woke up wondering if Gus Grissom had survived Apollo 1, would he have piloted the first Space Shuttle mission? He was first in line for Gemini and Apollo, so why not the Shuttle? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-13-2009 12:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
I think Bean was placed on the Apollo 12 crew in large part thanks to Pete Conrad, after the death of C.C. Williams.
There is a lot of assumption that Al Bean's assignment to AAP was a sign of Deke's lack of faith in Bean's abilities, when actually the opposite is true. Keep in mind that Bean was the first member of the 3rd astronaut group to be named as a crew commander, and the only one during Project Gemini. Slayton himself said he wouldn't have put Bean in that position (Backup Command Pilot of Gemini X) if he didn't feel he was up to the task, and that he simply wanted someone he could trust to head the AAP branch. I think Conrad had to plead Bean's case simply because Slayton didn't want to take Bean off the AAP assignment, a reflection of the fact that he was doing a good job. AAP was starting to take shape, astronauts were being assigned to the program, and Slayton needed people to fill positions, not all of them being geared toward flying to the moon. My question is if not Bean, who else was in a position to fill the slot? Were the 1965 and 1966 selectees ready for a crew assignment by then? If not, there really wasn't anyone else, most of the others having already been assigned to crews. Gordo Cooper as LMP? |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-13-2009 01:32 PM
I didn't mean to imply that Bean as put on Skylab because Slayton thought that he couldn't do the job on Apollo. However, if Conrad didn't want him on 12, Bean most likely would not have walked on the moon. There was no one else from his group to fill the seat on 12. You would have had to go on to the fifth group, which included men like Duke, Carr and Irwin.ibasso, your dream sounds more like a nightmare and maybe a good dream for Nixon! I don't see Grissom flying the first Shuttle mission (age by that point). If Nixon cancelled Apollo, then why not end NASA as well? |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-13-2009 06:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
Al Bean was moved to Apollo Applications as well, and he walked on the moon. I could definitely be wrong on this, but just because you were in the Apollo Applications office did not mean you were on the "second string" or were unavailable for assignment to a lunar mission.
Actually, it did. While Slayton was open-minded about Bean's abilities (see Delta 7's posts), Al Shepard was not. He didn't want Bean in a front-line Apollo assignment, and without Williams' death, and Conrad's lobbying for Bean, he would likely not have gotten one. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-13-2009 08:49 PM
Well, if all that is the case, then why did Slayton want Eisele and Cunningham on Apollo 7 in the first place? Why not use some of the guys on his "first team" so they could gain valuable experience for later lunar missions? Was he trying to "seed" the AAP office with flown astronauts to provide some experience and later lead those missions? |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-13-2009 09:16 PM
They weren't on Apollo 7 in the first place -- they were originally on Apollo 2, a very basic mission. (Eisele had been originally slotted for Apollo 1... also a very basic mission. Any mission without a lunar module was thought to be less challenging.) They were considered weaker -- his word, and note that it doesn't mean weak... only judged less capable of handling the complexities of a lunar mission than their contemporaries Anders, Aldrin, Cernan.So yes, the idea was, use these guys in the less challenging missions, then move them off to AAP where they could be useful. |
Proponent
Member Posts: 59
From: London
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 08-13-2009 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
My question is if not Bean, who else was in a position to fill the slot? Were the 1965 and 1966 selectees ready for a crew assignment by then? If not, there really wasn't anyone else, most of the others having already been assigned to crews.
I don't think it would have been any of the 1965 class, as they were all scientists. What about Fred Haise, the first of the 66ers to fly? IIRC, he had a shot at Apollo 11 (IIRC, Collins mentions something Carrying the Fire about bumping Haise off the flight).
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Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-13-2009 10:31 PM
It would have been Haise, Mitchell, Bull or Irwin, the leading LM-track astros from the 1966 group. They were considered eligible for crew assignment from late 1966 on... basic astro training only took about six months. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-13-2009 11:29 PM
Michael, I have your book with Deke and I refer to it constantly for my space history class. Did you hear it from Shepard that he didn't think Bean was good enough for a lunar mission? |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-13-2009 11:50 PM
Not from Shepard. From others in the astro office at the time. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 08-14-2009 03:40 PM
Michael, I'm kind of surprised by your earlier statement concerning Alan Bean getting an assignment on Apollo.If Williams flew on 12, do you think Bean would have taken a "back seat" to those chosen in the "class of 66"?
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Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-14-2009 04:22 PM
I always assumed that in that scenario, Bean would have been named to the Apollo 8 backup crew instead of Haise (after Lovell replaced Collins on the prime crew). He definitely would have been "next in line", having waited patiently longer than anyone else for a flight. However, it is possible that at that point they could have decided to keep him pointed toward Skylab. We'll never know for sure. |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 08-14-2009 05:30 PM
This thread threw me for awhile until I did a search and learned from Wikipedia that the Apollo 1 back up changed from the Apollo 9 crew to the Apollo 7 crew. This happened in December of 1966?Whats up with that? Is Wikipedia that far off or did the backup crew change about one month or so before the scheduled flight? |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 08-14-2009 05:35 PM
Apollo astronaut assignments as announced in 1966:Announced 21 March 1966
First manned flight - orbital
Prime crew: Virgil I. Grissom, Edward H. White II, and Roger B. Chaffee
Backup crew: James A. McDivitt, David R. Scott, and Russell L. Schweickart Announced 29 September 1966
Second manned flight - orbital
Prime: Walter M. Schirra, Jr., Donn F. Eisele, and R. Walter Cunningham
Backup: Frank Borman, Thomas P. Stafford, and Michael Collins Announced 22 December 1966
Second manned flight - dual mission with Saturn IBs
Prime: McDivitt, Scott, and Schweickart
Backup: Stafford, John W. Young, and Eugene A. Cernan Third manned flight - first Saturn V flight
Prime: Borman, Collins, and William A. Anders
Backup: Charles Conrad, Jr., Richard F. Gordon, Jr., and Clifton C. Williams, Jr. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-14-2009 05:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
This thread threw me for awhile until I did a search and learned from Wikipedia that the Apollo 1 back up changed from the Apollo 9 crew to the Apollo 7 crew. This happened in December of 1966?
The original Apollo 2 mission, (Schirra's) basically a repeat of Apollo 1 (earth orbit with no LM) plus many science and medical experiments, was cancelled in late 1966 because it was decided it was unnecessary. Under the new schedule, the 2nd manned flight would now be a much more complex mission involving dual Saturn 1B launches and a lunar module.Deke Slayton felt that Schirra's crew, who had been training for the same basic mission as Apollo 1 before the Apollo 2 cancellation, was much better suited to backing up Grissom's mission than training for the new LM-focused mission. And that McDivitt's crew was better suited for the new mission. Slayton also had a rule that any CMP flying solo in the CM must have had spaceflight experience. Dave Scott fit that bill; Donn Eisele did not. Even though the change occurred less than 2 months before the scheduled launch of Apollo 1, Schirra's crew and Grissom's crew had trained for the same basic mission: orbit the earth for a couple of weeks and test and monitor the CSM systems. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-15-2009 02:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
Michael, I'm kind of surprised by your earlier statement concerning Alan Bean getting an assignment on Apollo.
What's the surprise? It's not my opinion... it wasn't even universal astronaut office leadership judgment, just Shepard's resistance to Bean, which is self-evident: After backing up GT-10, Bean was shunted off to AAP and was only rescued by Conrad in October 1967. quote:
If Williams flew on 12, do you think Bean would have taken a 'back seat' to those chosen in the 'class of 66'?
For Apollo landings, yes. But don't read too much in this: we're only discussing a hypothetical situation as it existed in, say, September 1967. To go beyond the question -- what if C. C. Williams had lived? -- requires us to make decisions about Apollo schedules, the first AAP flight, etc. It gets too complicated, which is why these sorts of questions are only worthwhile to a point. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-15-2009 06:32 PM
With questions such as "What if C.C. Williams had lived?"; "What if Mike Collins hadn't required surgery?" and the like, it helps to qualify it with the proviso "all other things remaining the same." By doing so, it's a lot easier to speculate on what impact they would have had on subsequent assignments, as they in themselves wouldn't have affected the schedule of missions. Of course, if C.C. Williams had lived, someone else might have been flying that T-38 the next day and augured in. If Mike Collins had stayed on Apollo 8, Fred Haise (not in training for Apollo 8) may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time at 6:13 p.m on October 7 1968 and been taken out by a drunk driver. So you never know for sure how things would have ultimately been impacted. It's simply speculation, and there is a certain amount of fascination and fun in that with us space geeks.It's too bad Deke died too early. It would have been interesting to get his take on these questions. Of course, he'd probably get tired of the "Hey Deke! What if so-and-so hadn't died and ...." questions and have his e-mail address changed a couple of times a year!  |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-17-2009 09:59 AM
I don't think Deke would have answered too many of out "what-if?" scenarios, especially if the astronauts we are speculating about were still alive. |
bernoullis
Member Posts: 14
From: UK
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 09-14-2009 02:22 AM
No one mentioned Elliot See and Charlie Bassett in this thread. In any event, far too many permutations to really work out who would have done what had it not been for their T-38 accident. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-14-2009 04:37 PM
Just to make things simpler, I was aasuming than all events remianred the same with other astronauts, with the exception that Apollo 1 was a success. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-14-2009 06:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bernoullis:
No one mentioned Elliot See and Charlie Bassett in this thread. In any event, far too many permutations to really work out who would have done what had it not been for their T-38 accident.
It's a pretty good bet that after Gemini 9, Bassett would have flown his second flight as CMP on Apollo 8, as he was scheduled to join Frank Borman's crew after Gemini 9. (All things else remaining the same). After that, the normal rotation would have seen him as backup CDR of Apollo 11, then CDR of Apollo 14 (going by the path that Jim Lovell actually took). Had the See/Bassett accident NOT occurred, in my opinion it would have been less likely that Al Shepard would have walked right on to a prime crew slot (as CDR of Apollo 14, moving Bassett up to Apollo 13). I say that because I doubt Gordon Cooper would have been used for Apollo with the number of astronauts available, and since Cooper was an easy target for Shepard, it's less likely Slayton would have bumped someone like Armstrong, Conrad, Stafford and the like to accomodate Shepard. Al would have likely been forced to "get in line" on a backup crew first. But that's my educated opinion. As for See, it's too hard to tell, since he was scheduled to serve as backup Gemini 12 Commander after Gemini 9, and I've never been aware of any pending Apollo assignment following that. He would have entered the Apollo rotation late in the game, and I have the feeling Deke wasn't about to put him in Command of a lunar landing mission. CMP maybe. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-14-2009 11:42 PM
In my humble opinion, I can see Shepard running over everyone in order to land on the moon. I don't envision See getting another flight after Gemini 9. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-15-2009 08:37 AM
Ultimately, it would have been Deke Slayton's call. I just don't see him telling Armstrong, Conrad, Stafford, Young, Bassett or someone like that who would likely have been in line to command Apollo 13 or 14 in that scenario "I know you've trained hard and done a good job, but Al is top dog around here, so tough s**t!" Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read Slayton. Morale would have taken a real blow and there would have been a lot of discontent within the astronaut office, more so than bumping Cooper caused IMO. I think Deke would have done his best to fit Shepard in somewhere (maybe even as LMP or command of Skylab I), but his job would have been more difficult without Gordo to kick around.I think there's a fair chance See would have flown as CMP on an Apollo flight, or as a Skylab CDR, but I don't see Deke giving him the keys to a Lunar Module. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-15-2009 10:05 AM
I can't see Shepard as a LMP since the pecking order would have been upset. A member of the Original 7 not being a commander on a crew? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-15-2009 05:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
I can't see Shepard as a LMP since the pecking order would have been upset. A member of the Original 7 not being a commander on a crew?
Deke Slayton didn't command ASTP (although he wanted to). Although you're probably right, moving in ahead of someone like Jim Irwin or Charlie Duke would likely have been a lot easier that bumping a Conrad or Stafford or Young. And it's possible that one of them might have wound up as HIS LMP. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-16-2009 12:04 AM
Good thoughts but the one difference I see is that Slayton seemed like a man who put his ego in its' proper place.While I admire Shepard, I never believed it when he said he would have even gone to Skylab if it guaranteed him a mission. At the time of ASTP, I think the Russians were pushing for an experienced CDR as a sign that the U.S. was committed to the flight. Slayton was a rookie astronaut, and with Brand, and perhaps Swigert, it might have been seen as a second rate crew. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-16-2009 09:40 AM
I just don't know that Shepard would have been able to dictate to Slayton which mission and crew position he would have got. While Slayton surely sympathized with Shepard's position being comparable to his own, and would have given strong consideration to getting him a flight, Deke was by all accounts a fair manager. I doubt he would have "screwed over" another Group 2 or 3 astronaut who had done a good job up to that point, simply because Shepard wanted his slot. Replacing Cooper, however, was an easy decision, one that Deke had made even before Shepard returned to flight status.Had See and Bassett still been alive, there would have been more competition for the same amount of crew slots, and it's very doubtful Cooper would have been used at all. Bassett would have filled an early CMP slot, and possibly See as well. Mike Collins would have wound up on another crew as CMP or LMP, and in my opinion John Young would have gone right from Gemini to Apollo CDR (having flown twice and commanded already) instead of filling a CMP slot. Possibly Jim Lovell as well. In order to accommodate Shepard, someone other than Cooper would have had to have had a Command slot taken away from them; I just don't see Deke doing that to anyone on his "A Team". |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 09-16-2009 11:09 AM
One possible Apollo crew scenario: - Apollo 7: Schirra, Eisele, Cunningham (Conrad, Gordon, Cernan)(Cernan having replaced C.C. Williams)
- Apollo 8: Borman, Bassett, Anders (Stafford, Lovell, Aldrin) (Aldrin replacing Mike Collins due to spinal surgery)
- Apollo 9: McDivitt, Scott, Schweikart (Armstrong, See, Bean).
- Apollo 10: Conrad, Gordon, Cernan (Young, Eisele, Collins).
- Apollo 11: Stafford, Lovell, Aldrin (Basset, Anders, Haise).
- Apollo 12: Armstrong, See, Bean (Scott, Worden, Mitchell)
- Apollo 13: Young, Roosa, Collins (Shepard, Swigert, Irwin)(Tom Hanks plays John Young in the Oscar-winning movie).
- Apollo 14: Bassett, Mattingly, Haise (Lovell, Brand, Duke).
- Apollo 15: Scott, Worden, Mitchell (Gordon, Evans, Schmitt)
- Apollo 16: Shepard, Swigert, Irwin (Young, Roosa, Haise)
- Apollo 17: Lovell, Brand, Schmitt (Young, Roosa, Irwin).
- Skylab I: Conrad, Kerwin, Carr (Bean, Musgrave, Pogue)
- Skylab II: See, Garriott, Weitz (Schweikart, Lenoir, Lousma)
- Skylab III: Cernan, Gibson, Evans (Schweikart, Lenoir, Lousma)
- ASTP: Bean, Pogue, Slayton (Cernan, Evans, Lousma)
Engle and Duke early Shuttle Commanders. |
Apollo Redux
Member Posts: 346
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 09-16-2009 03:57 PM
'Back-up, skip two, fly one.' |
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