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Forum:	Stamps & Covers
Topic:	Space Cover 725: Not a cover but a memento

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<table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="600"><TR><td bgcolor="#000000"><TABLE BORDER=0 cellpadding=4 border=0 cellspacing=1 WIDTH="100%"><TR bgcolor="#660000"><TD COLSPAN=2><CENTER>T O P I C     R E V I E W</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Antoni RIGO</TD><TD><A HREF="http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000507.html" TARGET=_blank>Space Cover of the Week</A>, Week 725 (October 29, 2023)<center><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/antoni_rigo/scotw725a.jpg" width="480" height="288"></center> <BLOCKQUOTE>Space Cover 725: Not a space cover but a mementoAbove a cover with pictorial cancel commemorating the launch of Soyuz TMA-03M with the cosmonaut Oleg Kononenko (RKA), and the astronauts Don Pettit (NASA) and Andre Kuipers (ESA) direction to ISS.But wait! ...and the city name? Where is? And the date? Is missing too?Then is it a cover with an official postmark? Obviously, answer is not.This is not a real space cover according FIP Astrophilately Regulations and APS Manual of Philatelic Judging and Exhibiting (in the specific part for Astrophilately) because any of two pillars of Astrophilately are present: PLACE and DATE.Special characteristic of Astrophilately is shown covers postmarked at nearby post office on exact date and the cover below has not postmarked at any place and at any date.Simply, this is not a postmark but a cancel, a private cancel, produced to mark the stamp and anything else. All of us have seen this kind of items created to fix our eyes and not our brains. Any motivation for an astrocollector is located in this item. If this has not a postmark, if the cancel has not any place referred to and not a date is enclosed, then is just a memento, an item to be sold in touristic shops addressed to no collector people. It seems a nonsense have to explain something so basic like this, but for several times along my years as collectors mementos like this have been me offered and listed as space cover.If you have in your boxes other mementos, please feel free to post here an image and all we see other items without different concepts. Thanks.</BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>Axman</TD><TD>I think you are being a little harsh Antoni.What about blurred postmarks, where obviously a postmark cancellation has been applied but neither the time or place can be read?From a purely Astrophilatelic perspective they are useless, I'm not disputing that. But from a collecting perspective they can make interesting and informative additions, especially on rare printed cacheted covers where the collector already possesses other more common covers that already fulfill the Astrophilatelic brief!</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Antoni RIGO</TD><TD>Alan, maybe I was a little harsh (by using your same words) but sincerely I prefer to be categorical than not polite and open doors to misunderstanding issues.As I said in my post, sometimes some mementos are offered as space covers. And this was not an exception. Even if seller didn't want to fool anyone or he didn't know what was selling, the truth was the this item was listed as space cover and not as a memento.Regardless the price, I think everybody has the right to be correctly informed and then buyer freely decide if buying or not.In reference to blurred postmarks, sorry Alan, but I think you are confusing concepts. Nature of an item is not the same that condition of an item.A memento is like a space cover but never was, never is and never will be a space cover because in its origin didn't bear an official postmark or sometimes an official stamp but a cinderella. It is an item produced by selling as souvenir.However, a space cover with a blurred postmark was in origin a space cover and still is because it bears an official postmark applied on a real stamp over an envelope, mailed or not. A blurred postmark affects too the condition of the postmark itself (too much ink, lack of ink, etc) and is unreadable or partially difficult to read date and place. Sometimes, postmark is correctly applied but on a dark stamp and also it is difficult to read.But a blurred postmark was always a postmark, not well applied. Your condition is not good but your nature is.Above image is an easy example of what a memento can reflect but sometimes there is a bit complicated because in the cancel appears a name (invented, no real) or date is in wrong format according own rules of the country.Imagine now a memento with a private cancel bearing "Kennedy Launch Center" and date Oct 29, 2023. You well know that this cancel is fake as the name of Kennedy no longer exists. Furthermore, real name was Kennedy Space Center and not Kennedy Launch Center. It is a memento and not a real space cover.So, postmarks equals place and date shown, regardless its condition (blurred, clean...) in opposite to cancels equals place and date not mandatory. Cancels can be created by everyone. Just need to design an image and do a rubber tampon. It doesn't make it a postmark.Obviously for postmarks there are some exceptions (in place and date) for some periods of time, for example, WWII, when blind postmarks hid the name of place for secrecy reasons.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>cosmos-walter</TD><TD>Unfortunately the picture is too poor to recognize all details. It seems to be some 2011 phantasy first day cancellation for Kazachstan Michel # 16 which was issued in December 1992. </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Axman</TD><TD>I'm still not sure...I collect Russian aerograms and postcards that feature specific space flights - for example Pfau-I G184, which depicts the flight of Luna-10. Mine is postally used, but for a later date than the mission, and the postmark is for Kiev which has no connection to the launch place. Would you (Antoni) call it a space cover or a memento?I consider it to be a collectible space cover and not just a mere memento.If vendors on eBay for example, were to be banned from calling it a space cover it would be more difficult for collectors like myself to find these items.Again, I quite understand that it would be useless for an Astrophilatelist, but for a collector of space covers it may well be worth a place in their collection. We have an English saying: Horses for courses. It fits this situation perfectly.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>cosmos-walter</TD><TD>I fully agree with Antoni. This is no postal cover but a memento which seems to be produced in a Western country. However, it has a date: 21.12.20g above tma. I don*t know whether a company named Intercosmos exists or existed.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>randyc</TD><TD>A well-known space cover dealer from the New York area has been selling covers cancelled aboard USS Navy ships on the day of early launches from Cape Canaveral and White Sands Missile Range (WSMR). Although the covers have a cachet for the launch the ships did not participate in the mission and there were no ships required for the launches from WSMR. The only characteristic of the cover remotely associated with the launch is the date.They have been selling for around $5.00 so whoever is buying them isn't spending a lot of money but their value as 'space covers' is questionable.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>Antoni RIGO</TD><TD>Thanks Alan for your continual questions. They force to ask myself if I have been through these questions before, or similar ones.Thanks Walter, you found the exact words to define some of the characteristics of the mementos. Fantasy cancel is not a postmark.And thanks Randy for these mentions about some 'questionable' space covers.Alan, I just wanted to show a memento and warning others about these kind of items often offered as space covers when in fact they are not. I will try to answer to your post. Not all postal covers are space covers. There are millions of postal covers from any kind of any subject/topic. When topic is trains, ships, basketball, flowers, dogs... it is not a problem at all. It is clear that the postal cover is from each mentioned topic. The doubt appears when postal cover is for space topic. Is automatically a space cover?Again, not all postal covers from space subject/topic are space covers. As space cover I understand a cover with nearest/nearby post office postmark and exact date linked with the space event. Postal covers with space subject (for example, with pictorial space postmarks from philatelic exhibits) usually are not space covers.In your case, the Luna-10 cover with a later Kiev postmark is not a memento. Without watching it is difficult to be more precise. Probably is a postal cover from a space topic, but I cannot confirm 100%.Luna-10 cover was launched on Mar 31, 1966 from Baikonur. As in these dates no real Baikonur postmark was applied (Baikonur-Karaganda postmark is fake) in new astrophilatelic rules, they are accepted mailed postal covers/stationeries related to the space event with postmark not later than one year, as a space cover.Randy introduced the level of link between the postmark (place and date) and the space event. For some places/dates are easy to be linked with the space event; for other ones it is necessary to investigate and show why this is, or not, a space cover.Finally, I will use Apollo 11 date Jul 16, 1969 for all the places as sample. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Cover with KSC postmark. Ok, space cover for launch. <LI>Cover with Cape Canaveral postmark. Ok, space cover but better searching for another one with KSC pmk. <LI>Cover with Houston postmark. Ok, space cover for mission control on launch date. <LI>Cover with Canberra or Madrid postmark. Ok, space cover for tracking stations on launch date but Houston is best election. <LI>Cover with Wapakoneta postmark. No ok, although Neil Armstrong was born there, on launch date this place has not any role in Apollo 11. There are many other options before this election. <LI>Cover with London postmark. No ok, Only if you can demonstrate the link of this place on launch date, it becomes a space cover. Otherwise, if you cannot demonstrate, then is just a date match.</UL> And the last example is what Randy is saying, covers with correct postmark date from places (in specific, from ships) with a very slight link, or directly not linked with space event related.Alan, for sure you can have different opinions and suggestions. In addition, I am not an expert of anything (just a space collector for plus 25 years) and in the world not all is white or black. They are a lot of grayscale. Each case requires reflection and it is subject to differing opinions. I am not sure if all this can be useful for you. If not, just excuse me for this long post.I like collecting space covers and share my experiences with others. I enjoy speaking of space covers, astrophilately and learn from others. It is a hobby to have fun.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>yeknom-ecaps</TD><TD>Toni, a lot of good points related to space event covers, especially from an astrophilatelic exhibit stand point. However, there are plenty of covers that are not space event covers that I feel fall into the "space cover" category. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Your example, there are many pictorial cancels that are official post office applied postmarks that commemorate space events/topics not related at all to the location of the cancel.<LI>Postal slogan cancels — Glenn slogan from New Corcord, Cape Canaveral Moon landing anniversary.<LI>Just a "space" cachet for no specific event - Houston "Rocket City" cachet comes to mind.<LI>Cities with "space" names --- Tranquility, NJ for Apollo 11 moon landing, multiple Columbia cities for STS-1 launch. All with space cachets.<LI>What about a stamp FDC for a non-space stamp that has a space cachet - "Electronics" topical stamp that has a FDC that pictures a rocket in the cachet. Or unofficial cities for a space stamp - Apollo 11 Moon landing stamp canceled for FDI at Cape Canaveral.<LI>Postal history - U.S. Landsat Aerogram or many Russian postal stationary - collecting those in mint or used form for "ordinary" correspondence. <LI>"Official" stationary - Pete S. has a collection of all but ONE (Senegal) official NASA envelope for the tracking stations used for the space shuttle missions. Most not canceled for a mission but general correspondence.<LI>NASA VIP card not canceled at KSC but mailed later from some other location with mesage that the person watched the launch --- obtained on launch day at KSC but mailed later.<LI>KSC cancel not on a launch date. Something was happening at KSC that day that was space related (if you knew what it was you could add the cachet!).<LI>And of course the infamous USCGC Eastwind for Shepard launch (thanks Pooz for finding it was in Greece) that is in countless space cover collections. One could argue the impact that Shepard's launch had on Americans anywhere in the world would actually make this a "real" space cover. Similar for Sputnik 1 launch date covers from anywhere in the world.</UL> If I was shown a cover from any of these categories I would consider it to be a space cover to be put into space topic cover collection.Randy brought up the "questionable" space covers. I do know of other collectors who create "space covers" like these. They create them because there are no known event covers for that event from the event location (or even somewhere close) so their thought is that they can commemorate the event with a space cover with the appropriate date but not event location - closest they will get with the correct date. These collectors do not imply the ships were actually part of the recovery fleet as the covers you are specifically calling out seem to do (at least in some cases).So the definition of a space cover is ... depends on who you askSidebar: Is a space postcard canceled at KSC, etc. considered a "cover"? A topic for another post. <IMG SRC="http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/smile.gif"> </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>Axman</TD><TD>Thanks for your long reply Antoni. (Just to make clear, I'm not 'arguing,' I'm 'discussing.' A very fine point but one that sometimes needs to be highlighted).Otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with Tom's post above.To expand on two points: <OL TYPE=1><LI>I am very aware of the New York dealer's ship cancelled covers for White Sands launches. I would not consider them to be space covers.<LI>I shall post a couple of covers from UK below, which I absolutely consider to be space covers, even though they fail your tests.</OL> <center><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/axman/scotw725a-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/axman/scotw725a.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a><a href="http://www.collectspace.com/review/axman/scotw725b-lg.jpg" target="AirLock"><img src="http://www.collectspace.com/review/axman/scotw725b.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0"></a></center>I mainly consider them to be space covers because they are a contemporaneous historical document - even more contemporaneous than most of the early cacheted "launch covers" which had cachets applied days, weeks or even months later.And Tom, yes I know what you mean. Is a postcard a cover? Hmmm, strictly speaking no, but what the hell, does anybody classify fronts and entires when talking space? I think covers cover covers plus entires plus postcards. 🙂</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Antoni RIGO</TD><TD>Tom, many thanks for time spent in listing some examples of that you think are inside "space cover" category. For some of them I am close to you and for others, I am far.And, as you said, maybe what is a space cover and what is not could be a topic for another post.From the beginning of this post, my intention was not define what is or what is not a space cover, just wanted to show a memento and warning about them in front of real space covers.This is not a fixed definition but a memento or souvenir cover could be: an illustrated envelope (print, RSC, typescript or blank) with a stamp or cinderella and with an applied fantasy cancel (never official postmark) which seems similar to a space cover.Alan, thanks for the images for UK covers concerning Apollo 11 mission. Yes, I am agree with you about discussing here is one of the reasons why I like a lot the astrophilately.</TD></TR></TABLE></td></tr></table>

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