Posts: 3480 From: Netherlands Registered: Nov 2001
posted 01-16-2021 06:42 AM
Two astronauts participate in a publicity photo shoot with a Lunar Module mockup in Building 5 at the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston in August 1967. Don Lind is on the ladder and Vance Brand can be seen through the window in the CDR position. Apparently the plan at the time was still to let the LMP get out first.
Kite Member
Posts: 921 From: Northampton UK Registered: Nov 2009
posted 01-16-2021 10:14 AM
A very rare photo Ed, thanks. A shame that neither made it to the Moon and it would be of a particular interest to Buzz!
Rick Mulheirn Member
Posts: 4300 From: England Registered: Feb 2001
posted 01-16-2021 02:22 PM
Thanks Ed. Another terrific image.
Lou Chinal Member
Posts: 1360 From: Staten Island, NY Registered: Jun 2007
posted 01-16-2021 08:23 PM
I stood in this very same mock-up years later without a spacesuit and can tell you it was tight.
Yes, I can understand as to why Buzz was angry about the order of exit. But the goal was to land a man on the moon. As to who it was did not matter. To quote Deke, "I didn't want them doing some sort of dance in the LM. It was just easier for Neil to get out first."
GACspaceguy Member
Posts: 2650 From: Guyton, GA Registered: Jan 2006
posted 01-17-2021 06:06 AM
Always interesting in what drives history and events. I wonder who designed or decided that the forward egress was to open toward the pilot side and away from the commander side.
It was that person(s) design decision that ultimately drove the first persons lunar outer boot covering to make the first mark in the lunar surface by a individual human.
Ian Limbrey Member
Posts: 139 From: England Registered: Nov 2012
posted 01-17-2021 11:37 AM
Ed, another amazing photo which I certainly do not remember seeing before, thanks!
Jonnyed Member
Posts: 465 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
posted 01-17-2021 02:44 PM
I always thought that the order of egress and entrance to the LM was dictated by the same tradition that the U.S. Navy has:
The Commanding Officer always has the privilege to be first off the ship and last one to embark.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 45455 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-17-2021 02:52 PM
The Navy tradition was not a factor. The hatch configuration was the primary dictator (though depending on whose accounts you put more faith in, there may have been a management decision as well, at least on Apollo 11).
quote:Originally posted by Lou Chinal: ...why Buzz was angry about the order of exit.
By most accounts, Aldrin was never angry about the decision. He was, however, pressured by his father to be first out. Aldrin pressed for the program to make a clear decision, one way or the other, to avoid his father from injecting himself into the decision more than he already had.
Spacepsycho Member
Posts: 870 From: Huntington Beach, Calif. Registered: Aug 2004
posted 01-17-2021 04:25 PM
I was under the impression from multiple NASA management sources, that Buzz became a major pain by complaining to anyone who would listen, that he should be the first out of the LM. When Buzz's dad contacted NASA management and was lobbying to have Buzz be the first man on the moon, that's when Neil was approached about replacing Buzz from the crew. Don't forget that Chris Kraft said he almost removed Buzz from the flight rotation when he stated that Cernan should cut the steel fairing strap from the GT-9 Agena.
I spoke with two LM engineers who both said the hatch design had absolutely no bearing on who went out first. It was a simple task for Neil and Buzz to switch places before putting on their PLSS, so obviously it was a personnel choice by NASA management.
Buzz is a stud, he helped design and perfect orbital mechanics, he's a great astronaut and American hero, but the vast majority of space enthusiasts agree that Neil was the best choice to be the first human on the moon.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 45455 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-17-2021 04:49 PM
Armstrong and Aldrin demonstrated why moving around the cabin while suited should be kept to a minimum by accidentally breaking off the nib from the circuit breaker needed to light the ascent engine.
The lunar module was a cramped and confined space even without the spacesuits. Switching sides to accommodate who got out first was an unneeded extra step that would have only introduced additional risk.
The memos and correspondence that I have seen suggest that it was well understood that Aldrin Sr. was behind the inquiry. Like many anecdotes, though, the stories has blossomed over the years to fit individual needs and memories.
It is clear, though, that if there was an issue, it did not pose a risk or significant distraction to the mission, given Armstrong's choice to keep Aldrin on the crew.
Whatever transpired prior to their launch, both Armstrong and Aldrin performed the tasks they were assigned without issue during the mission. No one can say how history would have played out differently — if any different at all — had Aldrin or any other astronaut been first. Armstrong received his share of undue criticism as well. We can only judge the outcome based on history as it was.
Mike Dixon Member
Posts: 1504 From: Kew, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2003
posted 01-17-2021 05:17 PM
And the civilian versus military argument? Or was that fiction?
Delta7 Member
Posts: 1617 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
posted 01-17-2021 05:50 PM
I really doubt that was a factor. Neil Armstrong wound up on that mission because of Slayton's rotation system. There was no concerted effort to make sure the first man on the moon was a civilian. There was no guarantee Apollo 11 would make the first landing when the crew was announced. It could just as easily have been Pete Conrad or Alan Bean if Apollo 12 had made the first landing (which could have happened had any of the previous missions fell short of their major objectives).
I'm more inclined to believe there was some behind-the-scenes decision to have Armstrong go out before Aldrin, simply because NASA management thought Aldrin a bit of an oddball and loose cannon. We'll probably never know for sure.
Mike Dixon Member
Posts: 1504 From: Kew, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2003
posted 01-17-2021 07:40 PM
Certainly seemed to be a policy right through Apollo.
randy Member
Posts: 2381 From: West Jordan, Utah USA Registered: Dec 1999
posted 01-17-2021 07:41 PM
Like some others on this thread, I'd always heard that the hatch design made it easier for the commander to go out first, and that there was some behind the scenes maneuvering that some wanted Neil to go out first because he was a civilian.
Lou Chinal Member
Posts: 1360 From: Staten Island, NY Registered: Jun 2007
posted 01-17-2021 08:22 PM
Robert, I apologize. Anger was too strong a word.
Ed, thanks for another great photo.
oly Member
Posts: 1146 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 01-17-2021 09:05 PM
Apollo 11 was never guaranteed to make the first landing, as such, there was no guarantee that Armstrong would be first man. Given the gravitational mascons discovered by Apollo 10, the success of Apollo 11 was a pioneer from 50,000 feet down, and an abort was always on the cards. As such, I wonder how much priority was given to who would be the first out the door.
While moving about the cabin was a risk, it was a necessary task. The crew's sleeping arrangements required them to move about in cramped quarters. Once the PLSS was donned, the crew positions were fixed. Later crew sleeping hammocks must have proved difficult to use, but more comfortable than the assent motor cover.
During Armstrong's climb down the ladder, Aldrin's reflection can be seen in the LM window on the DAC film. He appears to be busy and moving about the cabin a lot. I have often wondered if this is when the circuit breaker was broken.
The risk of damaging items inside the LM while fully suited must have been identified during training and I would like to believe that both crew trained to exit the LM first, in case one of them suffered an injury during landing that would make it difficult for them to exit the LM. Standing while landing had never been done before.
Delta7 Member
Posts: 1617 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
posted 01-18-2021 09:42 AM
Another interesting question: assuming the switch from lunar module pilot to commander exiting first was driven by Aldrin's personality, what if Conrad's crew had been pointed toward the first landing from the outset? Bean could have wound up being first man to walk on the moon. Again, mere speculation and we'll never know.
Spacepsycho Member
Posts: 870 From: Huntington Beach, Calif. Registered: Aug 2004
posted 01-18-2021 11:40 AM
In my opinion, Neil was in the top three astronauts chosen to be the first man for multiple reasons. Obviously his post flight demeanor and the ability to handle the public pressures was a major aspect. Don't forget, the Apollo 11 crew were told if they had to abort the mission, they would fly the Apollo 12 mission. Pete Conrad was told the same thing, if he had to abort 12, his crew would fly the Apollo 13 mission.
NASA management didn't want these crews taking chances by forcing a landing that killed or worse yet stranding the crew on the moon. So it gave the crew confidence that NASA management had their back and gave them latitude to play it safe without losing their chance to fly again. Apparently the Apollo 13 crew didn't enjoy the same protections, although I consider Lovell to be in the top 3 NASA chose to be 1st.
The debate about Neil vs Buzz will continue till we find out who really built the pyramids. Like I said, I've spoken to a few guys who built the LM and trained the crews, every one of them told me point blank, "the hatch design had absolutely no bearing on who went out 1st." Without the PLSS, it was a simple task to move around the LM cabin and switch places. A few years ago an Apollo era astronaut told me the "hatch design excuse" was created as a way for Buzz to save face.
Honestly, after being at seven to eight events with Neil and watching how rude, intrusive and constantly annoying the public was to him, it took a special person to handle that white hot limelight and not go off the deep end.
Paul78zephyr Member
Posts: 696 From: Hudson, MA Registered: Jul 2005
posted 01-18-2021 03:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by heng44: Two astronauts participate in a publicity photo shoot with a Lunar Module mockup in Building 5 at the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston in August 1967.
I'm curious if the suited astronaut on the ladder could have jumped down to the foot pad and then jumped back up to reach the first rung in the 1g environment.
Mike Dixon Member
Posts: 1504 From: Kew, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2003
posted 01-18-2021 04:32 PM
Paul, one superb video I found three days back:
posted 01-18-2021 05:09 PM
Wonderful photo Ed! Does that mockup still exist?
Jonnyed Member
Posts: 465 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
posted 01-19-2021 01:59 PM
For what it is worth, this is (claims to be) a post from Buzz in 2014 on the subject of first astronaut out of the LM:
I felt that there was an obligation on my part to put forth the reasons why a commander who had been burdened down with an enormous amount of responsibility and training for activities (and because of that, in all previous missions, if someone, a crew member, was to spacewalk, it was always the junior person, not the space commander who would stay inside). We knew this would be different because two people would be going out. There was a group at NASA who felt the junior person (me) should go out first, but many people felt the great symbology of the commander from past expeditions or arrivals at a destination.
The decision that was made was absolutely correct as far as who went out first, symbolically. However who was in charge of the what happened after both people are outside, I believe, could have been done differently.
I was not the commander, I was a junior person, so once both were outside, I followed my leader, because we (NASA) had not put together detailed jobs of people outside. I believe it could have been improved. But it was very successful for what it was. And the decision wasn't up to me, or Neil, it was up to people much higher up in NASA.
Ian Limbrey Member
Posts: 139 From: England Registered: Nov 2012
posted 01-20-2021 06:36 AM
I agree that the way egress hatch was fitted would have made no difference who went out first. I believe (jokingly) after they landed on the Moon Buzz said this to Neil:
"Hey Neil do you mind if I pop outside quickly as I really need to stretch my legs."
Neil was not keen on accolades because of the kind of person he was and hence when he died in August 2012 his ashes were scattered in the ocean.
Every time I see the photo of the Apollo 11 crew bowing to the Queen and Prince Philip over here in Buckingham Palace I believe it should have been the other way round!
Blackarrow Member
Posts: 3256 From: Belfast, United Kingdom Registered: Feb 2002
posted 01-20-2021 09:51 AM
quote:Originally posted by Lou Chinal: I stood in this very same mock-up years later without a spacesuit and can tell you it was tight... To quote Deke, "I didn't want them doing some sort of dance in the LM. It was just easier for Neil to get out first."
I often wondered what sort of "dance" had to be performed inside "Spider" to let lunar module pilot Schweickart out past commander McDivitt. Of course, they had what I assume was the benefit of zero-g.
ozspace Member
Posts: 237 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Registered: May 2009
posted 01-21-2021 05:02 AM
Do we know where this mock up ended up? Is it on display anywhere?
Lou Chinal Member
Posts: 1360 From: Staten Island, NY Registered: Jun 2007
posted 01-21-2021 08:08 PM
This was in the 1970's. I have no idea where it is now.
The exact phrase Deke Slayton used was "I didn't want them some sort of goddamn dance in the LM." As only Deke could put it.
posted 01-16-2021 06:42 AM
advertisement