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Author
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Topic: Autographica 21, Birmingham, UK, September 2014
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Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 09-24-2014 07:38 AM
   
At £30 a time these lectures aren't cheap to attend and to have someone monopolise what was already a very short Q&A slot in my mind shows a real lack of consideration for those other people who may also have wanted to ask a question. I also think his talking over Gen. Stafford while he was still answering and that he was more than happy to try and jump in front of other people when they had been asked for their question suggests this is someone with very little regard for other people's enjoyment of the show. I suppose I have a few question marks over this person's credibility after I heard him telling Edgar Mitchell what he did and didn't see out of the window on the way to the moon on Apollo 14! Just for the sake of clarity, I have no idea what happened at the Al Worden one as I wasn't there so can only speak about the Tom Stafford talk. |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 09-24-2014 08:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by David Bryant:
The only contentious words were those of Al Worden, who was somewhat disparaging about a certain mission controller and his memoirs!
Don't be coy. Al was prepared to mention the name in public. Did his first name begin with C by any chance? |
David Bryant
Member Posts: 986
From: Norfolk UK
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 09-24-2014 09:00 AM
LOL! Yes, it did! |
robert_l
Member Posts: 168
From: Dundee,Scotland
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 09-24-2014 04:44 PM
Unfortunately, I was priced out of this one with the huge increases in price. With talks at £30 as opposed to £10 or £20 it all adds up. Cutbacks affected my job in the summer, will look at London next year. A pity because I would have loved to have met Al Worden again. |
YankeeClipper
Member Posts: 617
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Mar 2011
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posted 09-25-2014 03:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
Anybody know who he was?
I believe this Ed Mitchell article and this Brian Cox letter will provide the answers you are seeking.When the only tool in your kit is a hammer then every problem can start to look like a nail to be hit. I was present for the Ed Mitchell, Tom Stafford, and Al Worden lectures and I concur that these questions should be reserved for a fuller discussion at a later time and not time-limited Q&A periods. This guy shows no real regard for anyone else in his zeal to uncover the truth behind the Apollo missions. He has an inquiring mind and is seeking to reconcile discrepancies in NASA and Astronaut official records, debriefs, documentaries, interviews, lectures, and personal encounters. He would appear to have a discernible bias toward skepticism that the Apollo lunar landing missions happened the way NASA claim they did. Predictable negative reaction has merely reinforced his suspicions and skepticism. He is entitled to hold his views but not at the expense of others' right to enjoy theirs. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-25-2014 04:50 AM
So this guy is a skeptic, yet he was getting autographs from the astronauts? Might have been the same one I saw doing three rounds of multiple autographs with Stafford, completely oblivious to anyone else in the room.Pity the astronauts having to put up with so many "astro-botherers", both the skeptics and the fawners. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-25-2014 04:57 AM
Why do some people get so worked up about whether or not men have walked on the moon! I mean think about it, is it really something that a person should spend so much time, money and effort pursuing? It's a bit sad really. This guy really needs to get a life.Anyways, what did Al Worden have to say about Kraft's memoirs? I'd love to hear what he said. I have to say that the Saturday was a little quiet at the show but this just meant that I got to spend more time with certain astronauts. Jack Lousma - Legend! He was happy to answer my questions and pose for photos. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 09-25-2014 05:00 AM
I suspect he may not have been getting an autograph but was just wanting to carry on with his questioning from the talk as the crew member had to cut him off as they had already over run on time.
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Torsten
Member Posts: 35
From: Oberhausen, Germany
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 09-25-2014 05:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by YankeeClipper:
I believe this Ed Mitchell article... will provide the answers you are seeking.
Now that's an interesting one! I was there at this lecture and the editor seems to have a different remembrance than I have. "He [Neil Armstrong] didn't know what he was talking about!" I can't remember his exact words, but Mitchell simply answered like "I don't know what Neil has seen, but I saw stars". This time Mitchell's reply stunned the large audience – many whom were filming this exchange. There was no stunning at all, the audience was just annoyed. Large audience means about 40 people I guess (not even sold out) of which nobody was filming anything. Also the article suggests that Ed has been driven into a corner by the questions, which I can't confirm. Mitchell's lecture and his answers where flawless, considering his age. All together this question was just a three minute excerpt from his lecture. Interesting that one can write so much about it. |
YankeeClipper
Member Posts: 617
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Mar 2011
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posted 09-25-2014 06:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
What did Al Worden have to say about Kraft's memoirs?
Al was definitely none too complimentary. He surprised a few in the audience with a declaration to the effect that he wished he had a bomb so he could stuff it in Kraft's mouth. Al didn't elaborate or expound further but enough said!  |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 09-25-2014 06:51 AM
You have to love astronaut understatement! |
YankeeClipper
Member Posts: 617
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Mar 2011
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posted 09-25-2014 07:25 AM
Al's reaction when Kraft was referenced was almost hypergolic! |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-25-2014 08:07 AM
Was he stating that he thought the memoirs were inaccurate or exaggerated or just poor?If someone was referencing his book would they be in danger of using information that was unsubstantiated. |
Steve Procter
Member Posts: 1031
From: Leeds, Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-25-2014 08:31 AM
I recall getting some photos signed by Kraft some years back and in a letter to me he discussed the book he was working on at the time. (Wish I could find the letter...)In it he used the expression him having on some issues 'a selective memory'. As I say I don't know where the letter is to confirm him using those words but I believe that to have been the case. A cS member, well known to us all when I mentioned this at the time felt it may have been more 'selective amnesia'... I do remember clearly him speaking in glowing terms about the work of Cliff Charlesworth and Bill Tindall, which I don't think anyone would disagree with. |
Kite
Member Posts: 831
From: Northampton UK
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 09-25-2014 01:34 PM
I can confirm what Yankee Clipper says what Al Worden said about Chris Kraft is absolutely true. Of course there is history between the two of them following Apollo 15 and the stamp scandal.
It was the most disparaging comment of anyone I have heard at an astronaut talk since Jim McDivitt gave his opinion of Alan Shepard at Birmingham UK in May 2010! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-25-2014 01:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Procter:
In it he used the expression him having on some issues 'a selective memory'.
It has been quite some time, so please consider this more of a paraphrase than a direct quote, but when "Flight" was first released, Kraft was heard saying that what he wrote wasn't necessarily history as it was, or even history as he remembered it, but history as he thought it should be. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-25-2014 02:54 PM
History as he thought it should be! You mean a work of fiction! So when Kraft wrote about such events as the meeting of managers to discuss who went out first on Apollo 11, that may not have actually happened? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-25-2014 03:01 PM
My understanding is that Kraft is the only source for that meeting having happened. All other accounts of the meeting trace back to Kraft. |
Buel
Member Posts: 649
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 09-25-2014 03:51 PM
All the above may well be true... but let's not veer away from the fact that, in his pomp, Kraft was responsible for some excellent decision making and although not liked by some, was respected by many. To quote Gerry Griffin, "The guy that I probably related to the fastest, was Kraft. I always felt honored to work with him when he was flight director." Praise indeed.Whilst it is unfortunate that his book contains some inaccuracies (to say the least), when Kraft was in charge, the leadership he showed and achievements the man helped facilitate really were extraordinary. This must not be forgotten. |
Kite
Member Posts: 831
From: Northampton UK
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 09-25-2014 03:59 PM
Your spot on Buel. Kraft was the original and set the standard for all following flight directors. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-25-2014 04:07 PM
And to be clear, my comments only apply to his book, "Flight." |
YankeeClipper
Member Posts: 617
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Mar 2011
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posted 09-25-2014 04:10 PM
Having checked my notes, here is a more accurate statement of what Al said on Sunday: Chris Kraft is a bad guy. If I could feed him a bomb to blow him up, I would. It was a classic case of did he just say what I think he said?. And, yes, he did! |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 09-25-2014 04:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Kraft was heard saying that what he wrote wasn't necessarily history as it was, or even history as he remembered it, but history as he thought it should be.
Whilst respecting the talents and achievements of Mr Kraft, comments in that vein and his treatment of some other people lead me to wonder how a psychiatrist would evaluate him. Many people who make it to top positions in large organisations display "interesting" personality traits. I would be shocked if NASA was somehow immune to this. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-25-2014 06:13 PM
Reading his book, Kraft just comes across as a man with a lot of anger. |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2031
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 09-25-2014 09:01 PM
Just a bit of a qualifier on the Chris Kraft book "Flight" and its accuracy, which you may not realise. If you go to the ISBN page of the book (near the front) you'll see a little copyright note that the authors (plural) were Kraft AND James Schefter. Why Schefter's name is not on the cover is open to conjecture, but he is the one who put together the tell-all astronaut book, "The Race." Not only that, but he was the young journo who raced to the Freeman house after Ted had died in a T-38 crash and managed to reveal to her that her husband had just been killed. Not that this had anything to do with "Flight," but do be aware that Chris Kraft did not exactly fly solo in putting "Flight" together. |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 09-26-2014 02:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ColinBurgess:
...he was the young journo who raced to the Freeman house after Ted had died in a T-38 crash and managed to reveal to her that her husband had just been killed.
Well that's a heck of a choice of a person to ghost your autobiography. Thanks for the info. |
David Bryant
Member Posts: 986
From: Norfolk UK
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 09-26-2014 03:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by YankeeClipper:
It was a classic case of did he just say what I think he said?. And, yes, he did!
I find it quite ironic - and amusing! - that this part of the thread started off with several people attacking the guy who asked Col. Worden the question, the answer to which some people find so intriguing!Whatever his motives, Mr. Orbel certainly got some interesting responses from Dr. Mitchell, Col. Worden, Gen. Duke, etc. about the politics and personal relationships within Apollo. (By the way: I have most of the responses on video!) |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-26-2014 04:11 AM
Would Schefter have revealed Freeman's death if Slayton hadn't have stopped off for a drink on the way to Freeman's house?Just putting that out there. |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 09-26-2014 04:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
Would Schefter have revealed Freeman's death if Slayton hadn't have stopped off for a drink on the way to Freeman's house?
Low blow. I presume you've never been in a similar position? Can't see how any aspect of Slayton's journey excuses Schefter's conduct any more than if Slayton's car had blown a tyre on the 45 delaying him. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 09-27-2014 06:05 AM
James Schefter should not have gone to the front door. He had been told to meet Slayton and he should have waited until he saw him.Some astronauts never forgave him for what he did, take James McDivitt. He still holds very strong views on what happened and at the time wouldn't deal with Schefter, to the point of not continuing with a press conference until he left the room. But it should be remembered that Slayton's delay in getting to the Freeman's house put Schefter, who died in 2001, in that position. According to Schefter's book, 'The Race', Slayton later said, "You're right. It was my fault. I'd never delivered that kind of message and I took my time getting up the courage to go to the house." No one really comes out of that unfortunate story with much credit but it did ensure that nothing like it ever happened again. |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 09-27-2014 09:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
But it should be remembered that Slayton's delay in getting to the Freeman's house put Schefter, who died in 2001, in that position.
What position, loosing his patience and doing what he knew was wrong? quote:
According to Schefter's book, 'The Race', Slayton later said, "You're right. It was my fault. I'd never delivered that kind of message and I took my time getting up the courage to go to the house."
Well, Schefter would say that and we only have his word for it. Slayton kind of skates over things in "Deke", so maybe he did feel badly and try to blame himself. However, misplaced feelings of guilt during a tragedy are normal. They in no way exonerate Schefter, and his trying to use it as justification is pretty low. quote:
No one really comes out of that unfortunate story with much credit...
Still failing to see any problem with Slayton's conduct here. Can't work out how you seem to equate what Slayton was experiencing (having just been told of the death of a colleague), with the experience of an outsider.It looks like we've hammered this one to death as well. |
Skyguy48
Member Posts: 142
From: Scotland
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 09-27-2014 05:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by David Bryant:
LOL! Yes, it did!
Aaah... That was a Crafty clue from David, David.  |
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