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Author
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Topic: National Air and Space Museum book signings
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ScottJ
Member Posts: 14
From: Birmingham, Alabama, USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 08-06-2009 12:34 AM
   
The copy I ordered from the NASM which arrived last week has the same problem with the gold paint pen making a mirror image on the facing page. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 08-06-2009 08:37 AM
In the interests of fairness, I have to report; this morning I received an e-mail from a very nice woman at the NASM who offered to replace my copy with another book. Since the problem with the mirror images of Alan Bean's signature seems to have occurred with this group of signatures, and not wishing to cause a problem (I will never sell the copy anyway so resell value means little to me), I advised the NASM I will keep my book as is. As GACspaceguy said "I received a two for one deal!" |
randyc
Member Posts: 779
From: Chandler, AZ USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 08-06-2009 08:53 AM
I don't know what type of pen Alan Bean used but note that there is a difference between gold/silver PAINT pens and gold/silver SHARPIES. Because of the difference in the 'ink' and the fact that a paint pen, in general, puts down a thicker layer of 'ink' than a Sharpie it takes much longer to dry, especially on 'slick' paper. I've also noticed that even after the paint dries if the layer of paint is especially thick the signature could have areas that appear 'flattened' after the book is closed. I recommend using a gold/silver Sharpie instead of paint pens for these reasons. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-06-2009 12:31 PM
It's not the pen. It's the paper. And varnish.And it's not the drying time. I wish folks would give us the same slack they give NASM for massive errors. |
Mark Zimmer
Member Posts: 289
From:
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-06-2009 02:52 PM
Kim, can you amplify more about what specifically is the issue with the paper and the varnish?Feeling glad I ordered mine from you, after hearing about the NASM misadventures. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-06-2009 03:47 PM
Bean's book was modeled after Michael Light's FULL MOON. That too, is full of black gloss and matte varnished pages. Metallic works and looks best.Ink or paint "blobs," typically at the end of a stroke. In addition, you have the weight of a large book, which is exacerbated when stacked. The bottom books will "offset" metallic sigs the worst. The common sense trick is to use a slipsheet, to blot excess wetness. We use two; one after the sig has 'dried", another replacement when shipped. The "neaB nalA" offset can be removed with Bestine (Available at art supply stores.) Don't use on dustjacket, though. |
AJ
Member Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 08-06-2009 03:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
I wish folks would give us the same slack they give NASM for massive errors.
I would think most people actually expect more out of you and the rest of the folks at Novaspace. This whole signing at NASM has reeked of ineptitude since it happened and I think perhaps people are just tired of the drama. Novaspace is a respected gallery and I think people would be pretty surprised if something like this happened through the gallery. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-06-2009 04:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
This whole signing at NASM has reeked of ineptitude...
I know you didn't get your books signed, and it is unfortunate that you did not, but there were hundreds of people who did and were happy with the results. Slip sheets are a bonus offered by galleries that specialize in autograph signings, not museums or book stores, where the signature itself is considered the bonus to the book. There were many people who I spoke to that day at the museum who wanted the autograph only as a memory of meeting the astronauts and weren't concerned with what condition it was delivered. If you are concerned with the finer details of the autograph, then the lesson learned is do business with specialists such as Novaspace Galleries, but that is no reason to tear into the museum and its staff. |
AJ
Member Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 08-06-2009 05:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I know you didn't get your books signed, and it is unfortunate that you did not, but there were hundreds of people who did and were happy with the results.
You know what, though? It isn't about the books, or autographs. I am perfectly content to have a plain, unsigned Alan Bean book. I got to see three great astronauts in person and that was cool. My problem was with the museum staff, many of whom were friendly (I have said this before, mind you) but just didn't have all their ducks in a row. That may not even be their fault, but rather the fault of those in charge of the event. I agree that a lot of people had a great time and ultimately I did too. It's simply disappointing to hear that people are continuing to have problems with the museum and their orders. Someone else commented after the signing that the museum staff did not seem prepared for the size of the crowd and all that it entailed. Yes, it's a criticism and so are my comments, but that isn't intended to demean the staff, but rather to point out that it wasn't the perfect event some people would like to portray it as.I think that when people order an item such as a signed book, there is a certain expectation of the condition of the item. I don't think you'd expect the book to be dinged or torn, for example. I also believe people would not expect a problem like this to arise when dealing with a prestigious institution such as the Smithsonian. That's what makes it sad that so many people were either disappointed or got something that wasn't quite what they expected. Live and learn, I guess. |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 08-06-2009 07:33 PM
AJ - you make perfect sense. If you're going to put on a booksigning like this it behooves you to do it right. It isn't hard to do so, no matter the size of the crowd. It's a lot of work, but making it done right isn't that hard. From what I've read most of it left a lot to be desired. As Kim says, the weight of the books and the paper causes this mirroring. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that paint pens do that. And heavy books, stacked do it "better". The NASM is a wonderful organization - but it appears they blew it big time with this event. Even though I have as many autographs as I do, had I mail ordered one, I'd be sorely disappointed regardless. Because this is such a presitgous organization they owe it to their own reputation to do better. Kim does it right, on a smaller scale SOMETIMES, but nonetheless, he doesn't do it right for that reason. He does it right because he cares and is a professional as is every staff member. It is to the NASM credit though they did contact people to make it up. But if it's beyond your capability don't do something to cause yourself embarrassment. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-06-2009 08:06 PM
That Novaspace decided to include a slip sheet is really awesome (really!), but I wouldn't expect anyone to criticize them (as people are now the museum) if they did not. The book was sold at list price: the autograph was a free bonus. If you were paying a premium for the signature, I could understand calling for increased quality control, but otherwise, I think it's a bit like looking at a gift horse in the mouth. As I wrote before, if you are a collector and the autograph is the most important thing to you, then you really should do business with dealers like Novaspace that go the extra (awesome) mile to cater to that need. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the museum did by way of the absentee signing, especially as there are a great number of people who enjoy owning signed books but are not overly concerned with the condition of the signature itself. As for how the in-person signing was handled, yes, there were minor issues but at the end of the day, the museum staff worked to maximize the number of people who could get their books signed, which I believe was and is to be commended. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1634
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-06-2009 08:38 PM
Well said Robert; I agree entirely! |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 08-06-2009 08:55 PM
I am going to sit on the fence on this issue and say I agree with both sides. I agree with Robert that the book was sold at value and the autograph did not cost me anything. I would rather have the book signed with the mirror image than not at all. At the same time it is obvious that little thought was put into the actual signing of the book and it seems from what people are saying on this thread, there were more that a few copies that had the signature damaged.
I will keep this in mind in the future when ordering more expensive items; it is likely best to deal with a private gallery such as Novaspace. At the same time if the NASM had an item I wanted and could not get elsewhere (not the case here) I would use them again. I did e-mail the Smithsonian advising them of the situation with the mirror signatures and they quickly sent me an email advising that a new copy would be sent. Even after I advised them I was willing to keep my original copy, they advised me they would prefer to send a new copy and would make sure the signature was okay, and that it would be sent in the next day or so. Regarding the signing at the museum, all I can say is, I wish I had been there. |
xlsteve
Member Posts: 391
From: Holbrook MA, USA
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 08-06-2009 08:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
There were many people who I spoke to that day at the museum who wanted the autograph only as a memory of meeting the astronauts and weren't concerned with what condition it was delivered.
That is my attitude completely. I am very happy to have my signed books as a souvenir, but for me they were the 'price of admission' to meet these men, and I am happy to have been there on that day. I also appreciate their willingness to sign for so long and to also sign for mail orders. I have had a bit of a problem with the paint pen in my books as well, but letting the sigs dry thoroughly and inserting an acid-free slip sheet seems to have done the trick. I can only reiterate that my interactions with museum staff were very positive. I know that was not shared by all, but any time an event of this magnitude is undertaken there are bound to be some issues based on the law of averages, and I think that the museum has tried to make things right as much as they can.
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Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-06-2009 10:35 PM
Let's not forget that Smithsonian (NASM) is the PUBLISHER. They make twice as much off the books as I.And what would they replace your books with? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-06-2009 11:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
Let's not forget that Smithsonian (NASM) is the PUBLISHER.
Since 2005, "Smithsonian Books" has been an imprint of HarperCollins. I'm sure the deal between the publisher and Smithsonian is more lucrative than the publisher and retailers, but that's the Institution. quote:
And what would they replace your books with?
It stands to reason that not all the books signed had the lifting ink problem, even without a slip sheet. I brought home three signed books (one signed in-person, two pre-signed that were handed out at two of the museum's events). Only two had the ink lift to the top page; the third was clean. |
AJ
Member Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 08-07-2009 12:19 AM
I'm confused about the replacement books. It was my understanding that the museum was sold out of signed copies. So as Kim says, what is the museum replacing the books with? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-07-2009 12:46 AM
Pure speculation on my part, but for the book signings collectSPACE organized, we always kept back a small supply of books that were used for lost orders, damaged shipments, and other unforeseen problems. I have no idea if the Smithsonian does the same, but it's easily answered: just ask them. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-07-2009 12:54 AM
I believe HarperCollins is the distributor. It is unknown (by me) who put up the money (publisher), but the National Air and Space Museum is hosting the Alan Bean art show of the same name... hmmm.So I agree there is a third entity, but as a retailer, I'm a solid #3. Kim P.S. My disdain for the know-nothing staff of NASM knows no bounds, ever since Mike Collins quit as director. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-07-2009 01:11 AM
I believe HarperCollins is the publisher. In 2005, the Smithsonian shutdown its own mass market publishing arm of the Smithsonian Institution Press and licensed the name to HarperCollins under a partnership agreement.As for Smithsonian staff, that's a rather large condemnation of some very talented and respected individuals, including several members of this community. I can't imagine what you have against them, but it is completely opposite my experience. |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 08-07-2009 08:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The book was sold at list price: the autograph was a free bonus.
Actually this is not entirely correct. While on face it is, publishers traditionally organize booksigning tours in order to market the book and to sell more. So this enhanced their sales. It wasn't done for any altruistic reason such as making them available to the common man "just because". Had they simply sold the books unsigned, they'd have sold a lot less. So the bonus is the marketing tool. If you're going to offer this, do it correctly. Having been involved in a huge number of them myself, it is not that hard. The first mistake is using a paint pen. Something this simple they should have known. Let me be clear here, this is in no way a reflection on the astronaut. He sits there and plows through them out of necessity. He depends on his helpers - like at an autograph show - to handle the logistics and make things move along smoothly. I would also venture were Alan to be aware of this, he would not be thrilled. Having worked with many astronauts over the years, how you promote their product and them, is huge to them. Rightly so. As to the "minor glitches", that sounds somewhat like a minimization to me from what I've read. This is also in no way a reflection on the people who busted their humps that day. I am sure they did their very level best. But somewhere along the line someone caused a less than optimal event. The NASM is the pinnacle of the aerospace arena. They are better than what happened. I also believe their hearts were in the right place and even though I did not attend I AM appreciative of what they made available. Hopefully they learned from it, and in the future would work with someone like Kim or his staff, the absolute tops int he field, to make it an event without complaint. I also certainly understand those happy with the signature they got and there is much merit to that as well. But that is not my point. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-07-2009 02:12 PM
Yes, there ARE some competent people working at NASM, but they're generally supervisors and management. The staff are gov't. civil servants who can't be fired and thus have no call to excellence. One just has to read this thread to see their vascillations. They consistently underestimate demand, and thus are building an increasing reservoir of discontent. My personal troubles began with some miscommunication on a panorama of Pluto I did for them as a young space artist, and a book assignment which they lost. Their art curator from hell was openly hostile to space art, McCall, and probably director Collins. She hated everybody. Their curator of exhibits, upon viewing some of my work told me "clouds don't have flat bottoms"!!! I was floored by the audacity and his ignorance. The gift shop, run by people with no retail experience, bought some of my "University of Mars" T-shirts, which immediately sold out, but they never reordered (no profit motive.) That was about 20 years ago. Things haven't changed. As I said (somewhere) before, I have had universally bad experiences with NASM. Alan Bean insists on using the gold pen, and the paint pen is more heavily pigmented and brighter than a Sharpie. It really does look best. If HarperCollins is the publisher, they're not going to be happy about replacing a large number of expensive books. They are also the distributor. They don't need the Smithsonian Books name to split earnings with, if they're putting up the capital and doing all the work, only to be undermined by incompetents. Slip-sheets aren't a revelation, they are standard, and common-sense at booksignings. Rob, I understand you need to cow-tow to a powerful group such as NASM, but I am under no such illusions or constraints. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-07-2009 02:32 PM
My comments in defense of the National Air and Space Museum's staff are a result of my experience working with the men and women in their space history, public relations and retail divisions. They are among the best people I could imagine trusting our national collection of space artifacts to, not to mention working to reach out to the public.Unfortunately Kim, it sounds like you had some poor experiences working with the museum in the past. However, from my (perhaps more recent) experience, things have changed. To listen to Alan Bean, they have. He had nothing but the highest of praise during his visit for the staff and curators at the museum. His new exhibit is gorgeous -- to which he credits, and rightfully so, the museum's curators, exhibit designers and public relations staff. Back on the subject of the books, I would be very surprised if HarperCollins hears from more than a few people with complaints about their book. As I said, it stands to reason (from personal experience) that not all the books suffer from lifted ink, and out of those that do, I would guess that most care that the book is signed, not that some ink has stuck to the top page. |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 08-07-2009 02:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
Alan Bean insists on using the gold pen, and the paint pen is more heavily pigmented and brighter than a Sharpie. It really does look best.
I don't dispute that Alan prefers one, I was simply making an example. And it only reinforces what I was saying. If you're not equipped to handle a pen like the paint pen...And no matter how "wonderful" they are "now", I wouldn't be impressed. In fact it is my understanding someone now certainly isn't. And no, I'm not going to name names. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-07-2009 06:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
To listen to Alan Bean, they have. He had nothing but the highest of praise during his visit for the staff and curators at the museum. I would be very surprised if HarperCollins hears from more than a few people with complaints about their book.
Alan wouldn't have a bad word for anyone. He said in his talk at the Novaspace signing "...since returning, I never complain about the weather, ...the traffic or waiting in line..."I doubt that HarperCollins will get many complaints, too. It will be NASM who (rightly so) will take the heat. Guaranteed. Being in the mail order business for 32 years, I KNOW. Mail order customers are ruthless when it comes to quality. Many will complain about damaged gifts! They didn't meet any astronauts. By your own "experiment" as well as messages on this forum, at least 2/3 of books show offsetting. Storm's brewing. |
AJ
Member Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 08-07-2009 07:07 PM
I have to say it's interesting to read some of the other comments and in a way gratifying. I don't think it's fair to simply blindly dismiss people's complaints, particularly when justified, just because they don't correspond with your own. Clearly, we've all expected a lot out of the museum (past and present) and not everyone has been satisfied, whether it was yesterday or ten years ago. I feel badly for the people who are not happy with their purchases, whether they paid for the autograph or not. Also, I think that just because an autograph is free does not mean that it's thus okay for the autograph to be damaged. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-07-2009 07:23 PM
I think there is a difference between acknowledging individual issues and criticizing the museum as a whole, or declaring the entire event was blown "big time".By all accounts, when a problem was raised to the staff at the museum, they responded. They did what they could to extend the signing so that more people could get their books signed. They made sure that absentee orders were fulfilled. And when contacted about an issue with the book(s) received, they offered to replace it. Individual customer service issues are best served by contacting the responsible party directly. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2476
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 08-08-2009 05:19 AM
My plan is to call the NASM and ask if I can buy the returned books at a substantial discount as they are "damaged". I'll get a great book that has been signed by the author and a man who WALKED ON THE MOON! These will make great gifts for some of the kids and adults I speak to on space exploration. |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1096
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-11-2009 10:09 PM
Great news today from the NASM -- I received a call asking for my credit card info so they could ship the Michael Collins signed "Carrying the Fire" I had ordered by phone. She said they would be processed later this week and I should receive my copy by the end of next week.Thanks to cS, I had called very early about a mail order and they took my name and phone number but made no promises. With all the problems with the signing, I did not expect them to fulfill my phone order. So it was with great relief I got the call today. The woman explained that they shipped the books to Boston (?) for Collins to sign and then shipped them back to Washington, DC. She said that Collins could not autograph them at NASM because the signing went an hour or more later than scheduled and Collins had to get ready for the dinner that night. I thanked her for making my day. I am looking forward to the book's arrival to add to my collection. |
Jurg Bolli
Member Posts: 977
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 08-11-2009 10:15 PM
I ordered the Collins and Aldrin book in June from NASM, and they both arrived safe and sound today. They are both beautifully signed.I got the Bean combo from Novaspace a few days ago, and I am happy to say that all 4 books are perfect, at least my copies. Thanks to BOTH Novaspace and NASM for jobs well done. |
xlsteve
Member Posts: 391
From: Holbrook MA, USA
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 08-12-2009 08:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DChudwin:
The woman explained that they shipped the books to Boston (?) for Collins to sign...
I'm pretty sure that Mrs. Collins is from Boston, and I thought I read somewhere that they split their time between New England and Florida, so they may have made the quick trip to Boston after the NASM events(I live just outside Boston, and it's only about an hour flight from DC). |
jerseyboy
Member Posts: 49
From: Overland Park, Kansas U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 08-12-2009 04:39 PM
I received my books from the Smithsonian book signing today. I ordered two Alan Bean books which came with the pages stuck together, when I pulled them apart the autograph was on both pages. Also ordered two of the Michael Collins books "Carrying The Fire", but they instead shipped two of the Buzz Aldrin books "Magnificent Desolation". |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 08-12-2009 05:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by xlsteve:
I'm pretty sure that Mrs. Collins is from Boston
Pat is from Boston, and stays there and plays Grandma to her daughter's kids. Mike travels there frequently, but didn't fly to DC to sign. As NASM said, they shipped them to him in Boston. |
Michael Ritter
Member Posts: 48
From: Long Island, NY USA
Registered: Dec 2007
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posted 08-12-2009 10:29 PM
Received my "Carrying the Fire" today from NASM. Very pleased to have gotten home before the rain started and get the package inside safely. A big thanks go to the NASM and Mr. Collins for getting these books out there. I understand the frustrations of seeing the profiteers on eBay and can safely say that my copy will not be joining them. It has been a productive month for me, adding signed books by Cernan, Stafford, Collins and two by Aldrin, plus I am waiting on my two Bean books from Novaspace. To think I only had one signed book before that and the was Scott Carpenter's. |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1096
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-19-2009 04:57 PM
Received my paperback "Carrying the Fire" by FedEx yesterday from NASM with Mike Collins' signature on the title page above his printed name on the page. The signature was in black extra-fine sharpie.Thanks to NASM for fulfilling the phone order and to Gen. Collins for autographing the extra books so as not to disappoint. |
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