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  [Goldberg] Space memorabilia auction (Dec. 2015)

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Author Topic:   [Goldberg] Space memorabilia auction (Dec. 2015)
SClarkson
Member

Posts: 23
From: Fairfield,
Registered: Sep 2012

posted 11-27-2015 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SClarkson   Click Here to Email SClarkson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Goldberg's next space memorabilia auction is scheduled for Dec. 7, 2015 at about 12:00 p.m. Pacific time. (The time is not exact because there is a collectibles sale that proceeds space.)

As always there are many items sure to draw interest. A few highlights include a unique Mercury 6 Astronauts and wives signed agent contract (Slayton's copy), MR-3 flight used umbilical cable, a small section of Mercury heat shield, a Buzz Lightyear action figure signed twice by Aldrin along with many other Aldrin items from his personal collection, several Neil Armstrong autographs, a selection of shuttle camera and computer equipment and an atomic bomb test "trinitite" fragment.

Be sure to register with Goldberg's so you are all set to bid. Bids can be submitted on line in advance of the sale or on the 7th when the auction is underway. Good luck all.

Chuckster01
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Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-27-2015 07:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have never understood the rationale of having an auction during normal weekday business hours when the majority of people who might bid on those items will be doing that hum drum thing (called work) that allows them to bid on auctions held on weekend or evenings. Big advantage to eBay.

I miss out on most of these auctions just because I work for a living.

rgarner
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Posts: 1193
From: Shepperton, United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 11-27-2015 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rgarner   Click Here to Email rgarner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The same could be said for us Brits, I often have to stay awake until 4-5am to bid. I think the term ''you can't please everyone'' rings true in this situation.

SpaceAholic
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Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-28-2015 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A number of items (primarily Shuttle) characterized as "FLOWN" for which (legible) images of associated paperwork are not included in the listing (or which no other supporting attributes definitively establish flight heritage). As noted in previous threads scrapping of components occurred pre and post flight so that status alone is not provenance of flight.

Prior to bidding, particularly, if doing so with the intent/possibility of subsequent resale, recommend requesting a look at any supporting documentation detailed in the lot listings to come to an independent determination of whether the "FLOWN" designation is appropriate.

bunnkwio
Member

Posts: 113
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: Jul 2008

posted 11-29-2015 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bunnkwio   Click Here to Email bunnkwio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
One item I am curious about is Lot 1101, the surface flown flag. It was presented to Ed Barker from Gene Cernan and comes with copies of the presentation letters.

What concerns me is that this was just sold at the Heritage November 5th auction for $11k. Did someone really buy it and decide to flip it within a month? Or is it possible that there are more than one of these with copied coa's floating around? Or worse, are we losing auctions to rival auction companies buying items to list?

I'm hoping it is just someone who bought it and decided to quickly sell, but it just seems fishy for something with not-so-rock-solid provenance.

rgarner
Member

Posts: 1193
From: Shepperton, United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 11-29-2015 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rgarner   Click Here to Email rgarner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Auctions make money by charging consignor and winning bidder fees, and it seems to be very profitable in terms of percentages. I doubt any auction house would go out of their way to buy from what is essentially a competitor when they can just as easily request consignments from the collecting world. Do also note the estimate on the auction - why buy high and estimate low?

My best guess is there being several of these flags out there.

SpaceAholic
Member

Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-29-2015 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Previous listings of this (or duplicate unmounted articles) included notarization by Michael Orenstein — so perhaps he is also the consignor in this instance. Notarization only attests to true copy, not that the artifact is genuine. And the original document only talks to a single flag — if it is being photocopied and notarized for multiple articles that would also be an area of concern to any potential bidder.

spaced out
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Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-30-2015 08:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The flag being offered in this Goldberg auction matches the one which was withdrawn from the June 27 Goldberg auction but is not a match for the one that was sold in the latest Heritage auction.

The Heritage flag was a match for the one sold in the Dec 1 2012 Goldberg auction.

Ed Barker flown flags with the same copied letter were previously sold in the Aurora Spring 2004 auction and fall 2004 auction, at Regency/Superior in fall 2007, and at Goldberg in fall 2009.

I don't have good enough images from these four auctions to tell for sure if they match the Goldberg 2012/Heritage 2015 flag but I'm pretty sure none matches the Goldberg 2015 example.

In any case there are at least two flags out there accompanied by copies of the Ed Barker letter.

What happened to the original letter perhaps we'll never know, unless it's out there somewhere with a third flag...

NJSPACEFAN
Member

Posts: 128
From: Ocala, FL USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 11-30-2015 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NJSPACEFAN   Click Here to Email NJSPACEFAN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
Previous listings of this (or duplicate unmounted articles) included notarization by Michael Orenstein — so perhaps he is also the consignor in this instance.
Michael Orenstein passed away after a lingering illness in September of 2012; thus not the consignor. He was a credible and honest pioneer in the space auction field.

SpaceAholic
Member

Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-30-2015 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is one of the Orenstein notarizations. The letter states "this flag."

Which of the apparently multiple flags appearing on the market does the letter pertain to? Why was the original letter retained in the first place and not included as part of the initial sale with the actual artifact it was intended to certify?

spaced out
Member

Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-30-2015 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A fellow collector has helpfully pointed out to me a 15 year old thread on this forum which explains he origin of these flags to some extent.

I still can't get my head around the explanation for the flags. The Cernan/Evans letter states "This flag" (singular) but according to Orenstein, Barker was given an envelope containing 15 flags by Cernan which Barker noted as having been carried in Cernan's suit pocket during the mission.

This explains why Orenstein retained the original letter and made notarised copies to accompany individual flags but unfortunately no reference was made to the existence of multiple flags in the documentation that was created, nor was any attempt made to number them or otherwise identify them as being special.

The only person that might be able to shed some light on this now would be Cernan. Whether he would recall the details of this gift from over 40 years ago is open to question but given the small number of flags carried in his APK he might remember having given 15 examples to one person.

SpaceFerris
Member

Posts: 57
From: Thornville, OH
Registered: Mar 2015

posted 12-01-2015 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceFerris   Click Here to Email SpaceFerris     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will be watching Lot 1038 of 1171: Apollo 1 original "Apollo Flight Crew Emblem" crew patch. An earlier auction last month (RR Auction) had an Apollo 1 crew patch sell for $2K and I am guessing this was an aberration.

Besixdouze
Member

Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

posted 12-02-2015 08:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Besixdouze   Click Here to Email Besixdouze     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lunar Legacies not RR and, yes, the price took me by surprise too although having just checked, the winning bid has yet to be verified by Invaluable.com. Maybe Donnis has the answer.

bunnkwio
Member

Posts: 113
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: Jul 2008

posted 12-02-2015 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bunnkwio   Click Here to Email bunnkwio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
...he might remember having given 15 examples to one person.
He may, considering that he apparently put an envelope of 15 flags (per Orenstein) in his suit pocket (per Ed Barker), and then gifted the entire envelope to Ed three years after the flight of Apollo 17 (per letter), albeit mistakenly typing "this flag" twice in the letter.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this as well as the references. I initially thought I was going crazy having seen the Heritage auction last month. I didn't realize that this item (or should I say items?) has been auctioned so many times.

Besixdouze
Member

Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

posted 12-09-2015 06:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Besixdouze   Click Here to Email Besixdouze     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lot 1038, the Apollo 1 Crew Patch, realised $375 ($450 with commission) which pretty much reflects what they've made in the past.

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