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  R&R Enterprises May 2008 auction

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Author Topic:   R&R Enterprises May 2008 auction
b55er
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posted 05-02-2008 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er   Click Here to Email b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm considering bidding on #359 - Neil Armstrong.

As a neophyte to the field, what are your thoughts and opinions on this piece?

What do you project it will go for?

Thanks in advance,

B5

capoetc
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posted 05-02-2008 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's a nice signature and doesn't look faded -- plus, there is a Michael Collins signing coming up at Novaspace, so it would be fairly easy for a collector to generate an Apollo 11 crew-signed piece by getting Aldrin's sig later this year.

Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go for $2500 or so.

Maybe we should have a contest, where the winner is the one who gets closest to the final auction bid without going over.

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John Capobianco
Camden DE

mjanovec
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posted 05-02-2008 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the signature is likely good.

However, one should be aware that Scott Cornish is no longer authenticating for R&R...so, in the future, buyer's may wish to be more cautious regarding the astronaut signatures they buy from R&R.

b55er
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posted 05-02-2008 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er   Click Here to Email b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Coincidence since I posted.. Not sure..

It's now at $3k with 12 days left.

Fugetaboutit...

mikelarson
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posted 05-02-2008 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikelarson   Click Here to Email mikelarson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The possibility of completing a A11 crew pic on the moon is going to result in that item going for big money.

Mike

mikeh
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posted 05-03-2008 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
However, one should be aware that Scott Cornish is no longer authenticating for R&R...

This is a big mistake IMHO. There are way too many forgeries out there and it will be the death of this hobby. Not saying anything bad about other R&R authenticators, but Space is a specialty with very subtle considerations.

Having Scott there to provide his expertise and scrutiny is very reassuring to folks like me. I intentionally did not bid on many R-S items because of this same issue. Not that I bid blindly, but I will be much more hesitant with any atypical/ questionable pieces on R&R now.

mikeh
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posted 05-03-2008 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This #345 - Apollo 11 is the same as ebay 110232603459 sold last month for $4K. Pretty badly faded. Signed on the border not photo. But still, all three. Curious what it will do on R&R.

Mark Zimmer
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posted 05-08-2008 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mark Zimmer   Click Here to Email Mark Zimmer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mikeh:
Not that I bid blindly, but I will be much more hesitant with any atypical/ questionable pieces on R&R now.
Ain't that the truth? I'm pretty much done buying astronaut autographs on R&R, whereas with Scott doing authentication I felt a lot more comfortable.

Obviously not everyone feels the same way; it's at $3559 + 20% premium already.

capoetc
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posted 05-08-2008 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Zimmer:
Obviously not everyone feels the same way; it's at $3559 + 20% premium already.
Interesting. If there are no more bids (there probably will be), then crew completion would cost:

$3559 + $700 (R&R commission) + $295 (Collins sig) + $175-200 (Aldrin sig) + $500 (Aldrin crew completion fee) = $5229

Add another $100-200 to that total for shipping/insurance to get the item signed.

Couldn't you just buy a crew completed item for that? Or are they that much more expensive now?

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John Capobianco
Camden DE

capoetc
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posted 05-08-2008 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BTW, item 392 (Mercury 7 NASA photo, signed by 6) seems to be a pretty good deal ... for the moment, anyway. It's only up to $267 plus commission.

There are a decent number of them out there, but they aren't that common.

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John Capobianco
Camden DE

b55er
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posted 05-08-2008 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er   Click Here to Email b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually if YOU wanted to be the top bidder right now, you would need to bid $3909 + 20% = $4690

$4690 + Collins ($295) + Aldrin ($295 + $500 completion) + ~$150 shipping/insurance = $5930!

It would seem that a completion like auction #345 (currently @ $2244) is the better deal.

The sum is more than the whole.

spaced out
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posted 05-09-2008 01:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For $5229 you could have bought (picking almost at random):

At Regency/Superior's sale (fees inc):
A piece of Neil's GT8 spacecraft (heatshield plug) in lucite [$1207.50] plus fragments of film flown to the lunar surface on Apollo 11 and 17 [$1680] plus an LM pin flown on Apollo 15 [$1740] and had $600 left over.

or

At Swann:
An Apollo 13 flown silver snoopy [$2940] plus an Apollo 14 lunar safety line fragment (carried on the surface) [$398] plus a moonstone flown on Apollo 15 by Jim Irwin [$1592] and had $299 left over.

or

At Goldberg:
A complete Mercury 7 signed litho [$2415] plus a Texas flag flown on Apollo 8 [$1800] plus a 12x8" US flag flown on STS-1 [$891] and had $122 left over.

Don't know about you guys but I'd personally value any of those groups of items way above an Apollo 11 SP.

gliderpilotuk
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posted 05-09-2008 06:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Definitely, Chris, definitely.
Choice assemblage of alternatives.

Paul

mensax
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posted 05-09-2008 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some great comparisons of valuations to the "steals" from all the Spring auctions, but I always have to remind myself that the amount an item sold for at a previous auction is not the amount I would have had to pay... I would have had to beat that top bidder out of that piece, and we are all too aware that two guys seriously bidding can really run the price of an item up.

I also have to remind myself that Neil is the pinnacle, the leading edge, of our hobby. There are a lot of folks out there who could care less about owning something with regard to Apollo 14 (fools that they are LOL) but they feel that they must get a Neil signature.

This piece in particular in a great one, authentic, attractive, uncommon, and uninscribed. I bet it goes higher.

Noah

poofacio
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posted 05-09-2008 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for poofacio   Click Here to Email poofacio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know it's been said before but why aren't Neil signed Seiger stamp blocks worth more? They are decidedly the cheapest way to get an authentic Neil Signature.

stsmithva
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posted 05-09-2008 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stsmithva   Click Here to Email stsmithva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll second the Seiger blocks question, adding that they seem inexpensive across the board. A Swigert sold on eBay a few months ago for barely $100, and someone posted here after a major auction that they had bought the whole set (minus Armstrong) for something like $16 each! Since many of them show the crews on the stamps, aren't they great items to get more signatures on?

Steve

Mark Zimmer
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posted 05-09-2008 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mark Zimmer   Click Here to Email Mark Zimmer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The main problem is that most astronauts won't sign philatelic items any more; even if you have an Armstrong one, Aldrin and Collins won't sign it.

Still, I don't understand the low prices on those myself.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 05-09-2008 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
True, overall on their somewhat low prices, but many of the signatures on them are hard to see in their full impressions. Most of the stamp souvenir sheets were signed over colorful or darken areas with thin ink signatures from ball-point pens.

Germany's Hermann Sieger said he made about $150,000 by 1971 selling the exclusive souvenir stamp sheets autographed by 20 American astronauts. At that time, he reported selling a complete set for 1,950 German marks (about $600) that included a special presentation album with the set.

Oddly enough, rarely is the display album available when a set is up for purchase.

Paying $16 for a single stamp sheet, minus Armstrong, is one of the best autograph bargains in town considering that a full set, with Armstrong, was only $600 more than 35+ years ago! Perhaps, though, $600 in 1971 was a good chuck of money for some astronaut signed stamp sheets.

davidcwagner
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posted 05-09-2008 07:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for davidcwagner   Click Here to Email davidcwagner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What does the presentation album look like? Can anyone post a photo or have one for sale? I have a number of these. Some came with small descriptive sheets in German.

Thanks

Ishma
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posted 05-10-2008 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ishma   Click Here to Email Ishma     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any thoughts on item #354. Looks like a good Armstrong signature. Price is decent right now at $3230 + 20%.

Thanks

capoetc
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posted 05-11-2008 07:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ishma:
Any thoughts on item #354. Looks like a good Armstrong signature. Price is decent right now at $3230 + 20%.

Thanks


Looks good. It'll go much higher than that, though.

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John Capobianco
Camden DE

b55er
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posted 05-15-2008 12:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b55er   Click Here to Email b55er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow. 359 is close to $6k with RR fees.

I'd love to get a non-WSS Armstrong (preferably of the moon, Eagle, TLI). This type photo has a lot of this appeal to me.

Deep pockets I guess.

-B5

spaceflori
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posted 05-15-2008 02:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Sieger stamp blocks didn't come in a special presentation album, this is not correct.

I have the original advertising from Sieger and handled over a dozen of these collections (as I believe, too, these represent one of the best values right now) and most of them came in a common Lindner album which is just a blanco album used to store the sheets and the German description for each stamp block.
In fact I have one here right now on my desk.

Sieger has not only sold complete collections thus there are lots of incomplete collections on the market. He offered them on a monthly basis and when they first came onto the market, only 16 astronauts have already signed them.

Also Glenn and Armstrong are supposed to have signed 500 each and the others 200 each.

BTW Sieger had these collections complete and incomplete available till about 1-2 years ago. He sold the Armstrong alone at 100,- Euro (about $150) in 2006.

Florian

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Ken Havekotte
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posted 05-15-2008 06:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Florian -

Just for clarification, the original Sieger sets of signed stamp souvenir sheets did in fact contain a Lindner album with German descriptions of each issue. Perhaps the word "special" may be a bit misleading to use, but there was in fact a presentation album included with many of the early sets.

As noted before, why do you think Glenn and Armstrong only signed 500 of the sheets? Such information has been verified decades ago by Sieger himself in interviews, his own letters, reports by his own company, newspaper accounts, our own justice department, and even by some of the signing-astronauts themselves.

Take Glenn for instance, in Jan. 1971, reported that he made $5,000 from signing 1000 stamp sheets. Unless my math isn't correct, $5 x 1000 = $5,000. Correct?

Even if you saw or have an earlier ad from Sieger advertising only 500 available from Glenn/Armstrong doesn't necessarily mean that only 500 were produced. Without rechecking my files on the topic, Sieger may had very well advertised the first 500 Glenn/Armstrong signed sheets, but in fact, had another 500 in reserves.

Why is this so hard to believe?

spaceflori
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posted 05-18-2008 01:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ken, the Lindner album is not a presentation album, it was not made for the series, actually you can still buy that album anyhwere at any stamp dealer today. It's a common plain album to store either stamps, covers or sheets. Not even the pages inside are specifically made for the stamp blocks.

I'm surprised to hear that Sieger has confirmed the total amount to anyone before, I have a letter from him saying he will not disclose the total amount made. However my figures are 500 for Glenn and Armstrong (definitely more of those than the others) and 200 for the remaining 18 astronauts.

I don't care if it's 500 or 1000 but these are my figures I got from people over here.

I will ask him next time I see him somewhere.

It was 1000 for the Gagarin KNIGA covers btw.

Florian

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-18-2008 01:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaceflori:
However my figures are 500 for Glenn and Armstrong (definitely more of those than the others) and 200 for the remaining 18 astronauts.
Regardless if it was 500 or 1000, the numbers appear to be far lower than what the astronauts reported to NASA in 1972.

The New York Times, TIME Magazine and others all reported in 1972 that 15 astronauts had been paid $37,500 by Sieger for signing more than 30,000 stamps and postcards.

Even if you grant 1,000 each to Armstrong and Glenn (and 200 each to the other 13), that only accounts for 4,600 out of the 30,000+ claimed at the time...

Ken Havekotte
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posted 05-18-2008 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Florian --

It was Sieger himself that confirmed the amounts of money and details in a series of interviews, phone calls, and even by his own reports-publications. The project of astronaut-signed stamp items was first reported in April 1973 in his "The Moon Letter Story" as told by himself. By 1971 he was quoted as saying, "From 18 American astronauts I got 500 autographs each and from two other astrronauts 1,000 autographs each on such souvenir sheets," he said.

Sieger said he first realized the idea of having astronaut-signed stamp items in early 1970. Cooper was the first to sign the sheets, he said. Altogether, there were 20 American astronaut-participants from 1970-71 with the last being Scott. Cooper indicated that he made "more than $2,000 from signing about 500 Paraguayan stamp blocks." Glenn, on another report, said he made $5,000 from Sieger in signing 1,000 Ras Al Khaima block of four stamps that were issued in memory of JFK (see my prior post here).

It was also Cooper, along with Lovell and Swigert--at first--having denied any stamp-signing involvement for Sieger or anyone else. Those reports, it was later discovered, were not true.

Sieger, as a major international stamp dealer, said in 1973 that his firm had more than 60,000 subscribers and more than 50,000 occasional clients. The signed stamp sheet sets (available in sets and some as individuals) were offered to more than 100,000 collectors with whom he did regular business with.

With quantities of only 200 and 500, Florian, I am sure Sieger would have wanted much higher quantities to work with.

As Robert said in an earlier post, what would the math be if 2,000 stamp sheets were sold by Glenn/Armstrong and another 9,000 stamps were sold at $5 apiece from 18 other astronauts? That comes out to be around $55K for all the American astronaut paid fees. Of course, we may never know for sure all the exact "true" quantities and fees paid. But I would surely bet you my favorite-signed Armstrong piece that Sieger certainly had bigger quantities in mind than only 4,600 pieces.

spaceflori
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posted 05-18-2008 11:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It will be interesting to confront him with these figures next time I see him as he wrote me something different!

Based on the quantity I handled alone over the years I would imagine there are more than 200/500 each.

Florian

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