Author
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Topic: Payload specialists on the space shuttle
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MCroft04 Member Posts: 1634 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-14-2014 02:31 PM
I count 56 payload specialists who flew on shuttle missions. I don't think I missed anyone, but has anyone else made a count? If so does it agree with my number? |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 08-14-2014 02:55 PM
Are you counting just U.S. or international as well, Mel? |
MCroft04 Member Posts: 1634 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-14-2014 03:28 PM
All of them as long as they were formally designated as a payload specialist. |
brianjbradley Member Posts: 114 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Dec 2010
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posted 08-14-2014 05:00 PM
I count 48. This includes international, political, commercial and civilian flyers. Is it possible you counted PS's who flew more than once (Merbold, Lichtenberg, Walker, Durrance/Parise, Crouch/Linteris)? Or maybe you counted Military Space Engineers as PSs? |
Jim Behling Member Posts: 1463 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 08-14-2014 05:22 PM
quote: Originally posted by brianjbradley: Or maybe you counted Military Space Engineers as PSs?
MSEs would be PSs. Doesn't matter what the DOD called them, they were PSs from NASA's point of view. |
fredtrav Member Posts: 1673 From: Birmingham AL Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 08-14-2014 05:32 PM
I counted 54 but might have missed one or two. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 08-14-2014 07:23 PM
Payload Specialists. I counted 50. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-14-2014 07:42 PM
I can do a recollection after work, but in a story I did for Challenger's 25th anniversary, I noted, "Including Challenger, 22 payload specialists flew on 12 flights in the first five years of shuttle operations. Just 29 other civilians — mostly scientists this time — flew between 1988, when shuttle flights resumed, and 2003."So 22+29=51. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-14-2014 07:52 PM
I have time, so using Wikipedia:Merbold; Lichtenberg; Walker; Garneau; Scully-Power; Payton; Garn; van den Berg; Wang; Baudry; al-Saud; Acton; Bartoe; Pailes; Furrer; Messerschmid; Ockels; Neri Vela; Cenker; Nelson; Jarvis; and McAuliffe= 22 Post-Challenger: Durrance; Parise; Gaffney; Hughes-Fulford; Hennen; Bondar; Frimout; DeLucas; Trinh; Malerba; Mohri; MacLean; Walter; Schlegal; Fettman; Mukai; Leslie; Sacco; Guidoni; Favier; Thirsk; Crouch; Linteris; Tryggvason; Kadenyuk; Buckley; Pawelczyk; Glenn; and Ramon = 29 = 51 total. These are people who flew designated as Payload Specialists, even though some would later undergo NASA training and qualify (and in most cases, fly) as Mission Specialists. I asked this in another thread, but anyone know (aside from ego) why the Russians flew as Mission Specialists and not Payload Specialists? |
MCroft04 Member Posts: 1634 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-14-2014 08:10 PM
Thanks to all. Lots of different numbers but now I have some lists to compare to mine. |
MCroft04 Member Posts: 1634 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-14-2014 08:39 PM
I found some duplicates in my list. If I add Chiaki Mukai to the list of 51 PSs from Wikipedia, that makes 52 which I believe is correct. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-14-2014 08:45 PM
Who is the 52nd not included in Hart's list? Mukai is included. (I pulled together a quick list and got 51.) |
MCroft04 Member Posts: 1634 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-14-2014 09:00 PM
As always you (and Hart) are correct. I think we have a winner; 51! |
Jim Behling Member Posts: 1463 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 08-15-2014 07:15 AM
quote: Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo: I asked this in another thread, but anyone know (aside from ego) why the Russians flew as Mission Specialists and not Payload Specialists?
They were already "astronauts" and they went thru MS training vs PS. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-15-2014 12:37 PM
I guess I understand that. But I guess what I'm also confused about is that Canada and Japan and ESA had their own astronaut corps - Baudry, for example was backup to Chretien and so was trained as a cosmonaut yet still flew as a PS and not as an MS. |
alanh_7 Member Posts: 1252 From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 08-15-2014 02:16 PM
To be honest, I wondered that too. Both Marc Garneau and Robert Thirsk flew as payload specialists. Garneau flew again as a mission specialist on STS-77 and STS-97 and Thirsk returned to space as a mission specialist on Soyuz TMA-15 (Expedition 20/21). Both had been training for years with the CSA and NASA and not as single payload specialists. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-15-2014 05:45 PM
In the case of Garneau and Thirsk (and Tryggvason, who never flew again), they (and others on that list) later took NASA training to become mission specialists. Baudry, though, already had prior training; for that matter, so did Glenn. |
Skylon Member Posts: 274 From: Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 08-16-2014 08:47 AM
Was there any reason Wubbo Ockles, who was trained as a mission specialist with the 1980 astronaut class, was designated as a payload specialist on STS-61A?I also recall, something about training Nicollier and Ockles as mission specialists that didn't go over well at parts of Johnson Space Center. Can anyone confirm? Also, to take a side-step to the Russians, I'd guess a combination of factors led to them being designated mission specialists. First, Russians would gradually take on key roles towards mission success (EVAs during STS-86 and STS-106), the same as mission specialists. Americans flying Soyuz and on Mir were expected to have equal familiarity in its systems to the Russians — I see no reason the Russians who flew on shuttle would not receive the same depth of training. Cosmonauts had been through, an albeit different, but nonetheless proven astronaut training program — the ESA, CSA and NASDA/JAXA astronauts had to always get their training at either Star City or JSC. Cosmonauts came to JSC with that experience already. I call this professional courtesy almost (how could you say veteran cosmonauts were "payload specialists" and implicitly, unequal to American mission specialists). Docked spacecraft are considered one vehicle. This may have resulted in the Russians, even if they were just on the Mir or ISS side, receiving some mandatory shuttle training. Finally, and this may apply across the board to why ESA, Japanese and CSA astronauts eventually were all undergoing mission specialist training for ISS all those involved became full partners. It technically was not supposed to matter the country or agency or origin, each astronaut flying an ISS assembly mission, a Soyuz taxi of an full expedition had to be qualified in each necessary link of the ISS chain. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-16-2014 10:10 PM
Interestingly, MSEs - who had their own training system - did undergo EVA training, although PSs would never be allowed to do such tasks. I suppose "national security" would trump such a stance. |