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Author Topic:   Visualization of the distance to Mars
Solarplexus
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From: Norway
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posted 04-19-2015 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solarplexus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is cool way to visualize the distance to Mars compared to the distance to the Moon. Nice to know for future Mars travelers.

How far is it to Mars?

Kite
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From: Northampton UK
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posted 04-19-2015 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a brilliant demonstration.

Blackarrow
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posted 04-20-2015 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This explains in graphic detail why humanity should re-establish a space-faring capability by returning to the Moon before embarking on the enormous challenge of journeying on to Mars.

I would go so far as to say that "going to Mars" is the modern equivalent of "I'll clear out the garage some day."

The Spanish translation is "manana."

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-20-2015 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
...the enormous challenge of journeying on to Mars.
Because we only should choose to do things that are easy, not that are hard (with apologies to JFK).

Blackarrow
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posted 04-21-2015 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Believe it or not, we are actually in agreement. We certainly must go to Mars. And the moons of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. And Pluto. And beyond. But there is an honest ongoing debate about how to achieve that. I happen to believe that the easy, "cop-out" approach is to mouth fine platitudes about going to Mars decades from now, since that requires no immediate large-scale commitments. Just promises which don't get kept.

I want to see a return to the Moon, as soon as possible. Shared among several nations ideally. For those of us old enough to have witnessed live TV of astronauts exploring the Moon, the last 40 years have been painful and worrying. Above all, I want to see the restoration of a space-faring capability to take us outwards. But it can't be done overnight. It will have to be done one (small) step at a time, and that must involve using the Moon as a stepping-stone to Mars and beyond.

In time, the Moon can be a refuelling station (I recommend a recent book, "The New Moon" by Arlin Crotts, which covers this in detail). Before that, returning to the Moon will restore our faith in our ability to leave Earth and explore space. We have been tied to Earth for the last 43 years, too long to allow us to bypass our Moon in our attempt to reach Mars. Having re-established a space-travelling capability, we can then press on to Mars, but do you - does anyone - seriously believe that we can go straight to Mars and completely ignore the Moon?

The step-by-step approach might at least see astronauts on another world (albeit the Moon) within our lifetimes. But if we fall into the trap of accepting a plan for a Mars landing (or is it now just Martian orbit?) in about 20 -25 years, then all of our eggs will be in one basket, which will make it far easier for future politicians to drop the basket and say: "Sorry, no Mars!"

Finally, quoting JFK, he said: "We choose to go to the Moon, and do the other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard."

It's STILL not easy to go the Moon (or we would have been back!) It will be even harder to go to Mars. We need to learn how to walk again before we can run. Going back to the Moon will develop the skills necessary to go to Mars, in the same way that Gemini was a necessary preparation, not a wasteful distraction, before Apollo.

Kite
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From: Northampton UK
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posted 04-22-2015 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I could not agree with you more Geoffrey. You sum up the situation perfectly. If only the politicians could see this as well.

AstronautBrian
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posted 04-22-2015 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AstronautBrian   Click Here to Email AstronautBrian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I, for one, would like to see us return to the Moon first before going to Mars, if not on a permanent basis, then at least as a testing ground. It’s right there, at least in astronomical terms, and would be a good place to test equipment for Mars and asteroid landings. I know it wouldn’t be exactly the same conditions, but close enough. I would rather see a handful of missions to the Moon using Mars equipment to prove its worth before sending our people all of the way out to Mars, just to have the whole thing scrubbed at the last minute because of a flaw that could have been found and solved with a mission to the Moon.

It is high time to get out of LEO. Leave the space stations to the private companies. Let joint NASA, ESA, Roscosmos, CSA, and even Chinese missions stay one step ahead – as the private companies take over the space station business, move on to the Moon. As private companies reach for the Moon, the big agencies reach out to Mars and the asteroids. Also, I would love to see unmanned landings on the Galilean moons of Jupiter in the near-term. This is the ideal situation, though. The problem is the will of the people as a whole, who are influenced by politicians who treat NASA like the red-headed stepchild, even though NASA’s funding really doesn’t add up to much in comparison to many other government programs.

Glint
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posted 04-22-2015 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kite:
That is a brilliant demonstration.
Well, I'm not so sure. What are all those white specs speeding past, cosmic dust? Couldn't be the background stars because they would remain stationary during the journey.

If they are supposed to be stars then this animation could be misleading as it might give viewers that are less acquainted with the organization of our solar system the false impression that Mars lies far beyond many of the closest visible stars.

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
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posted 04-22-2015 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AstronautBrian:
It is high time to get out of LEO. Leave the space stations to the private companies. Let joint NASA, ESA, Roscosmos, CSA, and even Chinese missions stay one step ahead – as the private companies take over the space station business, move on to the Moon.
You need to take it further. There is no need for any gov't sponsored exploration. Let industry, the marketplace and other organizations do it.

Really, what good does a Mars base do for the USA? Before the standard response, I would like to point out that the government of the USA is not the same as mankind. The job of the government of the USA is to take care of its citizens. That is a shorter term than looking out for mankind.

Also, the legal status of citizens on another planet is murky. Why should a country spend the resources to look out for citizens on another planet when they chose to leave the country?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-22-2015 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're right, the United States shouldn't go to Mars. Humankind should go to Mars.

Humanity includes people who work for the government and people who work for industry. It includes citizens of the United States, as well as every other nation on this planet.

Yes, it sounds idealistic, but right now the only people limiting who should go to Mars are those advocating [insert favorite entity here] go. We should stop debating about who will be involved and just let everyone who is interested join in.

(As for the moon, it is sort of like the poppy field on the way to Emerald City. Its allure is that it looks like a better way to reach the goal, but it is a potential trap in disguise.)

Solarplexus
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posted 04-22-2015 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solarplexus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
What are all those white specs speeding past, cosmic dust?
They are probably there to show the traveling speed, a black background will not show that. But I agree in that they can be misleading.

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
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posted 04-22-2015 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
You're right, the United States shouldn't go to Mars. Humankind should go to Mars.
I agree, just not with tax dollars.

Blackarrow
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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 04-23-2015 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
(As for the moon, it is sort of like the poppy field on the way to Emerald City. Its allure is that it looks like a better way to reach the goal, but it is a potential trap in disguise.)

At the risk of repeating myself, this is like referring to the allure of that nifty sportscar-in-space, the Gemini capsule, as a dangerous distraction on the yellow-brick road to the Moon.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-23-2015 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore...

All analogies aside, and appropriate to the original subject of this thread, it seems to me that the only reason the moon is being suggested as a stepping stone to Mars (over other potential stepping stones, at least) is its proximity to Earth. And while there is no disputing that the moon is the Earth's nearest neighbor, I don't know if that should be the ruling factor.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to go to the moon. But it should be because you want to go to the moon. Find a compelling reason to go that has nothing to do with going elsewhere, because if what you really want is to go to Mars, then there are better ways to go about it than landing on the moon first.

AstronautBrian
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posted 04-24-2015 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AstronautBrian   Click Here to Email AstronautBrian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see your point. However, perhaps there have been enough recent, new discoveries that may warrant more visits. Kill two birds with one stone - test the equipment; check out new things. I'm thinking mainly of the lunar poles and the potential of ice there. True that we can send rovers and unmanned landers, but I still think manned visits can potentially yield the best results and data.

I guess I'm just an idealist and forget the money involved. I want to scream "It's right there! Why not go!?" Since I was born years after Apollo, I feel a little cheated!

Blackarrow
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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 04-25-2015 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm with AstronautBrian. Well put. Two historical analogies might also help:

If Queen Isabella had known that the Vikings had already visited North America, what if she had told Columbus: "It's been done, go somewhere else."?

Why did Santa Anna bother with the Alamo? He could have surrounded it with a thousand men to starve the defenders to death and swept on into Texas with the rest of his army. But he clearly felt he couldn't ignore the Alamo, which was right in front of him, representing unfinished business. (Okay, I know what eventually happened, but that's not the point.)

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-25-2015 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If Queen Isabella knew of North America, and her goal was to find a route to the Indies (which it was), it wouldn't have made much sense for her to sponsor Columbus to go to North America.

On the other hand, if she knew about North America and wanted to send an expedition to the "new world," she wouldn't have diverted Columbus to the Indies for practice.

The systems needed to land on the moon are not applicable to Mars, given the latter's atmosphere. Working in a one-sixth gravity environment is entirely different than in a two-thirds environment. The moon doesn't have dust storms like on Mars, nor does it have comparable geology.

Brian raises some good points for why returning astronauts to the surface of the moon may be desirable, but practicing for Mars is not one of them.

Blackarrow
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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 04-25-2015 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, of course the Moon is different from Mars. That really isn't the point. The point is getting off our collective backsides and going somewhere. The nearest "somewhere" is the Moon. Restoring the desire, the ability and the experience of landing on a world which is not the Earth will, I sincerely hope and believe, become habit-forming, so that the next "somewhere" will be Mars. It should not be "either/or", it should be a progression.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-25-2015 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why would going to the moon be habit forming now when it wasn't 45+ years ago?

Blackarrow
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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 04-26-2015 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The hope I expressed was that landing astronauts on extraterrestrial worlds would become habit-forming. The issue remains: do we return to the Moon first as an integral part of this outward movement, or do we bypass our nearest neighbour in space? It looks like those of us who prefer the first option aren't going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-26-2015 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to see astronauts return to the moon, but I want them to do so for the reason of going to the moon, not just as a stepping stone to go somewhere else.

And at this point in our history, I don't think it needs to be the U.S., or perhaps any government, that leads the next lunar landing.

oly
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posted 04-27-2015 02:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps a return to the moon should be considered as the best and closest testing ground for any further destinations. If we look at the various systems and hardware items that will be required for use on mars, an asteroid or any other target then the moon is the best proving ground possible. Take for an example the EVA suits that will be required. These will need to be worn for longer durations, for more repetitive uses than any items previously used during the Apollo or Shuttle/ISS programs.

Testing in Earth 1g environment and in LEO low gravity environments still will not provide the required testing environments. Testing for extended durations on both the Earth and the Moon Lunar surface will give a much better, more realistic environment to test in. It is also much closer to return to earth and make modification to design or materials before we get all the way to Mars only to find that there are flaws in design or materials.

This holds true with the majority of items needed for any more distant destination.

If it is government or private sector that conducts this testing is not really relevant, however I am sure that society well benefit from this type of exploration and testing.

All times are CT (US)

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