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  Veteran commander choice on Skylab 4

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Author Topic:   Veteran commander choice on Skylab 4
carmelo
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Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 08-08-2018 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If Deke Slayton had would a veteran as commander on the last Skylab mission (Skylab IV), which names would have been considered?

If we exclude (for many reasons) Rusty Schweickart and Walter Cunningham, and Tom Stafford that not want a long flight, who could choose at the time in which the crews were selected?

Dick Gordon? Jim Lovell? John Swigert? Stuart Roosa?

Skylon
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posted 08-08-2018 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jack Swigert is possibly the only real option that Slayton could have made the offer to since he had no flight assignments after Apollo 13 — of course the fall-out of the Apollo 15 stamp business would have created a headache if that had ever happened.

Dick Gordon and Vance Brand, coming off backing up 15 was considered enough time to make them possible backups for Skylab (Gordon was offered the role of backing up Skylab 2, but opted to retire after Apollo 15, while Brand ended up as Skylab 3 and 4's backup CDR), but not preferred for prime-crews.

With Stu Roosa backing up Apollo 16 and 17, turning him into a Skylab CDR doesn't seem likely. Jim Lovell doesn't seem like he had any interest in sticking around to fly anything other than a lunar landing - he had already announced his attention to retire before 13 even flew.

alanh_7
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From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 08-08-2018 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for alanh_7   Click Here to Email alanh_7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aside from the fact that Carr, Gibson and Pogue did a great job...

If we are playing a game, I would say Vance Brand. His experience working on the Skylab 3 rescue scenario which was fortunately never used I think made him an ideal choice.

Fra Mauro
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From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 08-08-2018 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that the crew did a great job. But for this discussion, how about Ed Mitchell?

mrspacehead
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posted 08-08-2018 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mrspacehead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don’t think Mitchell had any interest in flying again after Apollo 14.

I know I’m breaking the rules of the game, but if Elliot See had been alive he might’ve been a good candidate.

ManInSpace
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From: Brooklin, ON Canada
Registered: Feb 2018

posted 08-08-2018 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ManInSpace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mitchell most certainly was not interested in further flights, to put it mildly.

Slayton in his autobiography addressed this very issue. Given that the landings would end with Apollo 17, Deke believed that it was unfair to ask rookie astronauts to train as backups; knowing that they would not rotate onto Prime crews down the road.

Once the lunar cut-off was confirmed, he informed the remaining crews in training that they would be assigned as backups to the flights remaining after their own missions were completed.

Mitchell alone objected and told Slayton he intended to leave NASA immediately after completion of Apollo 14. Slayton told him that unless he formally committed to assuming the Apollo 16 backup LMP position; he would not fly on 14.

The rest as they say, is history.

Henry Heatherbank
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Posts: 250
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005

posted 08-09-2018 06:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Slightly off topic but I think Rusty Schweickart always deserved command of Skylab 4. I felt he was dealt a bad deal for being so honest/open on his space sickness on Apollo 9 and was done a disservice by Frank Borman’s dismissive approach to the post flight interest/investigation by the medics.

It seems Rusty was out of rotation and lost his spot in the queue while he was used as a test subject (presumably willingly so, but Borman could have done the same given that he self-selected not to fly after Apollo 8). If Borman had been more willing to participate in the SAS investigations, maybe Rusty might have got back into the rotation. I appreciate there is a lot of supposition here.

For mine, Rusty should have got his turn on Skylab 4.

Tykeanaut
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From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
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posted 08-09-2018 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tykeanaut   Click Here to Email Tykeanaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quite ironic of Borman, didn't he have his own problems on Apollo 8?

Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 08-09-2018 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Walt Cunningham deserved a Skylab mission; he did put a lot of work into the program. He expected to fly, only to be told he'd be Conrads' backup. He decided to retire instead.

With who was available, I'd say Swigert was the most likely choice in that scenario.

  • Conrad, Kerwin, Weitz
  • Bean, Garriott, Lousma
  • Swigert, Gibson, Carr
Then Stafford, Pogue and Slayton for ASTP.

SpaceAngel
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From: Maryland
Registered: May 2010

posted 08-09-2018 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAngel   Click Here to Email SpaceAngel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fred Haise would've been commander for Skylab 4; he was planning to return to the moon on a future Apollo mission, but got cancelled...

trajan
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From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted 08-09-2018 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trajan   Click Here to Email trajan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there any reason why Mattingly doesn't seem to be in the picture here? Was backing up Apollo 17 too big a task to also consider Skylab? Just interesting that his name doesn't seem to pop up given that he stuck around with the program till the mid to late 80's...

Skylon
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Registered: Sep 2010

posted 08-09-2018 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
Then Stafford, Pogue and Slayton for ASTP.
I wouldn't rule out Vance Brand still for ASTP in this scenario — as he was one of those in the Astronaut Office who jumped into Russian-language training early, when ASTP was just a possibility. But, you would have some tight competition between the two, for sure.

As for Mattingly, he did not backup 17 (which sounds fair since he had to cycle through two prime crews in order to fly), and I think was something of a question mark for a bit from my understanding of what he planned to do after Apollo 16. He considered going back to the Navy as I understand, but ended up working on the shuttle and eventually embraced the idea of flying it. Skylab does not seem like something on his radar, and as suggested — the turnaround was too tight to go from Apollo to Skylab.

Fra Mauro
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From: Bethpage, N.Y.
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posted 08-09-2018 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I knew about the Mitchell scenario but was just throwing the name out for discussion.

Maybe if he was offered it before Apollo 14 he might have been interested. Maybe not. Other names that could have been entertained — Armstrong, Shepard, Slayton. They all have drawbacks, I'm sure. I have felt that Armstrong would have been a great selection for ASTP. The Russians chose a space hero, so why couldn't the U.S?

carmelo
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Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 08-09-2018 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Apollo 18 was cancelled on 2 September 1970.

If Slayton had would a veteran as commander on Skylab 4, is possible that would have asked to Dick Gordon if he wanted the job. Gordon was one of Pete Conrad's close friend (and Pete was influential) and he was on Apollo 12 as Pete (commander on Skylab 2) and Al Bean (commander on Skylab 3).

So, Deke could say: "listen Dick, you have barely none possibility to walk on the moon, so go to Skylab with Pete and Al." In this case another commander would be appointed for the back crew of Apollo 15 (Haise?) and Richard Gordon would have flown on Skylab 4. Sound likely?

Fra Mauro
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Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 08-09-2018 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I have read, Conrad advised Bean and Gordon to move to Skylab. Gordon was hoping that having Schmitt on his crew was his ticket to a moon landing.

trajan
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Posts: 111
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted 08-10-2018 08:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for trajan   Click Here to Email trajan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
As for Mattingly...
Thanks for the reply, Skylon!

Skylon
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Registered: Sep 2010

posted 08-10-2018 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by carmelo:
...is possible that would have asked to Dick Gordon if he wanted the job.
The problem is Gordon, Brand and Schmitt were not just hanging on in the hope that Slayton broke rotation and gave them 17 — they were stuck as 15's backups. The crew was announced and in training, and by Sept. 1970 less than a year from launch. It doesn't appear that he offered them any way out of that assignment after word came down of 18's cancellation.

If Gordon were to fly on Skylab, he would have had to make that decision to move over to that program soon after Apollo 12.

ManInSpace
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Posts: 134
From: Brooklin, ON Canada
Registered: Feb 2018

posted 08-10-2018 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ManInSpace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have to agree that it was likely far too late in the timeline to pull Gordon's crew.

Also as Fra Mauro has mentioned, Gordon was still not giving up on a chance for a landing. He (Gordon) has spoken about his efforts right up until the final decision, to have his entire crew assigned to 17; as opposed to just switching the LMP slot. Even if an offer had been made that late to pull his team; I believe he had already decided to "go for broke" (my words) so to speak.

All times are CT (US)

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