Author
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Topic: Advice: Gemini 4 crew signed or autopen?
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gareth89 Member Posts: 498 From: Ireland Registered: May 2014
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posted 06-09-2022 07:54 AM
Can anyone help me out identifying whether these Gemini 4 crew signatures are authentic or autopen? There appears to be shaky lines but I can't match them definitively to any patterns I can find. I thought for sure the Jim McDivitt was autopen at first but I'm back on the bench. Thanks for your help! |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3467 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-09-2022 11:39 AM
An interesting pair of crew signatures, however, they looked forged to me in several areas. |
gareth89 Member Posts: 498 From: Ireland Registered: May 2014
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posted 06-09-2022 12:36 PM
Is it the shaky lines Ken? I didn’t like the McDivitt but parts of the White looked quick and natural. I was thinking they looked like they may have been signed on an uneven surface, but my eyes are definitely untrained in comparison to yours! |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3467 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-09-2022 12:57 PM
It's only my personal observations and nothing more. Yes, I don't like the shaky lines of "Edward," but also the flow of some letter characters in his first name and even with the spacing. With McDivitt, to me, its the formation of the first name letters, the middle initial, and the ending of the last name with how the two "t's" were crossed. I would just not feel comfortable in making a purchase for that GT-4 signature pair. I've got 1965-66 era-vintage autographs of both McDivitt and White together and they do not match these patterns. |
gareth89 Member Posts: 498 From: Ireland Registered: May 2014
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posted 06-09-2022 01:06 PM
Thanks Ken, I very much appreciate the input. It belongs to me but came in a job lot some time ago, it didn’t seem right to me so I never paid it much attention until I was looking through the archives today. |
stsmithva Member Posts: 2043 From: Fairfax, VA Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 06-09-2022 11:51 PM
Another detail that looks off to me is how much higher the "White" is than the rest of the name. It's also farther away than on most examples. That indicates to me that someone paused after the H., then resumed work. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3467 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-10-2022 04:43 AM
The White signature being further away, as indicated in the above post, is what I was referring to in my original post. I've never seen that "spacing" trait before of America's first spacewalker. |
capoetc Member Posts: 2303 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 06-10-2022 12:04 PM
My first thought was that the signatures both look to my decidedly-amateur eye as possibly traced on a light table since I see a lot of hesitation in the flow of the pen for both.Are the signatures on a document or is it just a scrap of paper? Or something else? |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3467 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-11-2022 12:19 PM
Tracing is possible, maybe more so with White, but McDivitt would not seem to be the case in my opinion. |
gareth89 Member Posts: 498 From: Ireland Registered: May 2014
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posted 06-11-2022 04:07 PM
Thanks for the input everyone, I really appreciate it. The signatures are on an fdc, and the only thing that caught me was how swift the pen stroke was on parts of the Ed White signature, in particular the 'H' which I thought looks spot on (despite all the other issues!).If nothing else I do believe that it is a good discussion piece, and I'm certainly learning, and without good reason not to it will be destroyed at the end of this thread to avoid future distribution. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3467 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-11-2022 05:44 PM
Just curious, though, what FDC did they come from? Perhaps one of the Project Mercury 4-cent issues? |
gareth89 Member Posts: 498 From: Ireland Registered: May 2014
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posted 06-11-2022 06:48 PM
I’m away for the weekend Ken but I’ll send a pic to you early next week, it’s a g4 cover with portraits of both White and McDivitt, I know it’s a common cover though I’m no expert |
Jonnyed Member Posts: 552 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 06-11-2022 08:13 PM
To my amateur eye, the dead giveaway that they are phony is that they appear to both be from the same hand: - Look closely at the incredible similarity of the "e" in James and the "e" at the end of White, also,
- Notice the very similar structure of the "a" in James and the "a" in Edward.
The work of the same con artist. |
NicDavies Member Posts: 50 From: Tobermory, Argyll, Scotland Registered: Jan 2019
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posted 06-13-2022 06:21 AM
Those are awful. I'm surprised the reaction is so equivocal.Try the following experiment: Sign a piece of paper naturally. Now, underneath that signature, make a copy of it but this time write it rather than sign it. Now compare the two. Yes, they will be similar, but they will also be very different. These differences are what you need to look for. You might well miss experienced forgers who are adept at duplicating the flow of natural signatures, but you should be adept at spotting signatures that are clearly written rather than signed. |
garymilgrom Member Posts: 2091 From: Atlanta, GA Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 06-13-2022 07:49 AM
Nic I don't understand "write instead of sign it." Do you mean make a copy of the signature? Thank you. |
schnappsicle Member Posts: 409 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 06-13-2022 09:33 AM
I can't speak for Nic, but we all know what a signature is. When someone "writes" a signature, they're basically copying the signature. They go about it very slowly as if they're intentionally trying to form the letters very specifically instead of scribbling the signature down the same way as when they sign something.I just wanted to say thank you to Gareth for this great post. I have to admit when I first saw the signatures, I thought they might be OK. After comparing these with some genuine autographs, I realize how far off they are, as in not even close. Ed White doesn't make his E pointy like that. The H is crossed all wrong, at least compared to the one I found. He connects the H and the W in White and all of the letters connect. Again, all wrong in so many ways. And that's just my uneducated opinion. The McDivitt is wrong too for all the reasons previously discussed. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3467 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-13-2022 10:23 AM
From my own observations, the "W" of White's name doesn't always connect to the "h" of his last name. I've got several authentic White's signatures that have this trait, but sometimes, those letters may just barely touch each other, while others, you can still see a slight gap not connecting them. My Apollo 1 crew signed glossies mostly have this trait as well, including some signed items that came directly from the Ed White estate of his son and grandfather. But for sure, in most all cases that I know of, the last four letters of White's last name (hite) do in fact connect together. |
Jonnyed Member Posts: 552 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 06-13-2022 11:48 AM
To add just 2 cents more, the other thing that makes me question authenticity is the state of the ink. To be authentic they would have to be well over half a century old (McDivitt is still alive but I'm presuming some kind of contemporary signing with White... perhaps not?) Unless well cared for, I believe the blue ink would be noticeably more faded. This example's ink looks too fresh.I'm not a professional analyst, so just 2 cents. |
NicDavies Member Posts: 50 From: Tobermory, Argyll, Scotland Registered: Jan 2019
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posted 06-14-2022 05:09 AM
Sorry folks, I was unclear. Yes, I guess I mean try copying or drawing your own natural signature. The lack of what I call 'flow' will be very apparent. As mentioned, this won't mean someone who is skilled at copying signatures at speed (so maintaining the 'flow') will be easy to spot, but it's a start.Of course, as we have seen with late examples of Buzz Aldrin's autograph and the problems arising regarding authentication, a more drawn appearance can be a sign of the ageing process (it comes to us all!). For this, context and provenance is of course paramount. Posts like this are great as they serve to educate us all. |
Spacepsycho Member Posts: 878 From: Huntington Beach, Calif. Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 07-02-2022 01:14 PM
In my opinion, the Ed White autograph is a forgery with multiple tells in speed, style and spacing. I looked at 14 authentic Ed White autographs in my collection, they're much different than this example. As someone said earlier, this looks like it was traced, but whoever did it didn't have the same flow and paused between his name. I wouldn't touch it. |