Author
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Topic: 133476200870: Ed Mitchell Insurance cover
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Chuckster01 Member Posts: 988 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 07-29-2020 07:06 PM
Has anyone seen any other Apollo 14 insurance cover in this format from Edgar Mitchell? |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3069 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-29-2020 08:25 PM
Not one of my favorite presentations at all, by Peachstate, and note that Roosa's name is misspelled in the write-up and that the cover shown was not a part of the MSC Stamp Club as stated. Many of the covers in this category had come from Al Bishop, though Mitchell did have some himself of this variety, both crew signed and unsigned. |
Chuckster01 Member Posts: 988 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 07-30-2020 12:45 AM
I guess my concern would be the hand written "Official Crew Cover From Personal Collection." That just seems wrong as most astronauts put "From My Personal Collection." And I am not sure about the hand writing either. The signature looks fine to me but everything else in my opinion looks questionable. |
bobslittlebro Member Posts: 200 From: Douglasville, Ga U.S.A. Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 07-30-2020 02:23 AM
I had the same concern that the cover does not state "From My..." Anything from Peachstate is a red flag! |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 44427 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-30-2020 05:57 AM
Heritage has sold other examples of these covers with the same inscription in October 2009, November 2012 and May 2016.RR Auction sold examples in December 2009 and April 2018. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3069 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-30-2020 07:16 AM
While there were other printed COA versions of the Mitchell covers, they had not been provided by the MSC Stamp Club as advertised. Those depicted all came from Al Bishop as the MSC Stamp Club had their own exclusive cachet version.The crew did, however, retain some of the MSCSC-cover types before launch, but the majority of those used as crew signed insurance covers were of the Bishop astronaut/Navy and Air Force insignia wing covers. |
NAAmodel#240 Member Posts: 321 From: Boston, Mass. Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 07-30-2020 09:09 AM
While the presentation format may be out of vogue, there is no reason, in my opinion, to suggest that the inscription and signature aren't genuine or that this wasn't an Insurance type envelope retained by the astronaut. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3069 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-30-2020 10:04 AM
Just for the record, I never did say that the Mitchell covers were not genuine, as I know many of the later Apollo crewmen did retain some unsigned crew covers, rather postal used or not. |
jfs2 Member Posts: 223 From: Flagstaff, Arizona Registered: Aug 2012
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posted 07-30-2020 10:39 AM
Hello everyone, thanks for your discussion on my cover. I requested a look from Steve Zarelli and he gives the cover a thumbs up as in Mitchell's hand. While the presentation has some oddities and yes a spell check would have been nice, I am continuing to call it good and will be available for an eBay bid to any interested parties. |
capoetc Member Posts: 2207 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-30-2020 10:40 AM
Here is a thread regarding Apollo insurance covers — I am linking it here in case anyone missed it earlier. Some very good info.These Mitchell Apollo 14 covers seem to hold a separate place in the collecting community. Established guidelines for what is and is not an "insurance cover" include: - The envelope is one of the covers that were used for insurance covers for that mission.
- The cover was signed by the entire crew before the mission and placed in safekeeping with someone who would have the covers cancelled on the launch date or the moon landing date with the intent that they should be used as a form of life insurance for the crew.
- Preferably the cover would be annotated on the reverse by a crew member that the cover is from his personal collection. While this is not always possible (many Apollo insurance covers made it to the marketplace long before concerns about provenance were prevalent), it is a desirable trait.
I am still not sure what to make of the Mitchell single-signed covers. To be clear, I do not question Dr. Mitchell's integrity at all. The Peachstate certificate that accompanies these covers makes clear that Mitchell did not sign the covers before the mission — some of the covers were left unsigned and cancelled with the insurance covers, and he signed his blank covers later after the mission was completed. Is it possible (likely?) that Ed Mitchell, like Gene Cernan in the case of the Apollo 17 anniversary covers, was not aware of the specific terminology involved in the collector community regarding insurance covers? I think that is the most likely explanation. The Apollo 17 anniversary cover controversy happened when David Frohman (David Ball was involved as well, but I am unsure of his role) convinced Gene Cernan to authenticate his anniversary covers as "insurance covers" (Cernan's integrity was never in question; Frohman took advantage of the fact that Cernan did not realize what the term "insurance cover" meant to a collector, and he urged him to accept the wording placed on the covers and on the certificates that accompanied them). See the third page of the thread linked in this paragraph for Cernan's response to the controversy shortly after the covers were released. Frohman's earlier involvement with the Mitchell "insurance covers" looks to me like a similar situation. Ultimately, the Mitchell covers were not signed before the mission. That makes them nice signed collectibles, but I think it is pretty safe to say that they should never have been presented by Frohman as insurance covers. To me, the big question is: How will the Mitchell covers (and the Apollo 17 anniversary covers) be viewed in the future? We have already seen the Apollo 17 anniversary covers, accompanied by the manufactured "insurance cover" provenance, being treated in the marketplace with virtually the same reverence as actual insurance covers (I saw one in a recent auction that sold for around $2,500). It is unlikely that the whole story of those manufactured Apollo 17 "insurance covers" will accompany the covers themselves, so the fiction will likely be accepted as fact by future collectors. Here is an earlier thread regarding Peachstate Historical Consulting, Frohman's company. The history is less than stellar. One last point from a blog post from an author who spent some time writing at Frohman's home, which he renovated and named "Fountainebleu." I will let Frohman's words speak for himself: To fully explain what it was like he told me a story about Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man ever to walk the moon. "Edgar told me before I got there he had a box of junk, and when I left he had an estate," he smiled, as the relevance of his work sunk into my brain. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3069 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-30-2020 11:43 AM
There are other Apollo astronauts with similar covers like Mitchell (such as with Young, Haise, Irwin, and Cernan), however, perhaps a "true" crew insurance cover would be those that had been crew signed before their launch to the moon, posted for the mission, and retained by that astronaut, his family, or gifted to close friends afterwards.The depicted Mitchell covers of this topic, owned by Mitchell and his family (of which I have no problem with), might be considered as an "intended insurance-type," cachet cover, similar to the Cernan MSCSC-original cover batch for the final Apollo lunar flight. But they had not been crew signed before launch, but nevertheless, were a part of that original cover batch, perhaps as extras and just were never completed. |
Chuckster01 Member Posts: 988 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 08-01-2020 04:43 AM
My question on the cover may be one of ignorance on my part. I was under the impression that all of the Al Bishop covers from just before the mission (and as far as I know every documented crew signed Bishop "insurance" cover) had the Apollo 8 postage stamp on them. Why would this cover be different even if unsigned? I am also not sure of the COA as Edgar Mitchell never signed it. Just because there are several in circulation does that mean that they were authorized or certified by Edgar Mitchell himself? If anyone on cS had first hand knowledge of Dr. Mitchell's participation in producing these COAs or certifying the covers as they are described that would put my fears to rest. |
capoetc Member Posts: 2207 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-01-2020 07:37 AM
In my opinion, the signature is fine and the COA is a Peachstate Historical Consulting COA. David Frohman did have a business relationship for a period of time. You can go to his website and see pictures of him with Mitchell. He also had business relationships with Aldrin, Bean, Duke, Cernan, and perhaps others. The problem I have is with what I call "manufactured provenance," convincing the astronaut that an authentic item in his possession is actually another (more valuable) item. The single signed covers were likely in a box in a closet, mostly forgotten and magically, now they are "insurance covers" complete with authentication from the astronaut himself! The same situation repeated itself with Cernan's Apollo 17 anniversary covers. On the Mitchell COA, it says that Mitchell signed the covers sometime after the flight. Was it a week after? Was it 26 years later when Frohman arrived at the house? Does it really matter? I say "no." The Mitchell covers (and the Apollo 17 covers) are nice authentic collectibles, but they are not insurance covers. |
bobslittlebro Member Posts: 200 From: Douglasville, Ga U.S.A. Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 08-01-2020 08:20 AM
I agree with capoetc 100%. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3069 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 08-01-2020 08:33 AM
That's why my earlier post indicated they were probably "intended for insurance cover purposes," but would not quality for a number of reasons.Three other Apollo astronauts that I have worked with on cachets had similar Bishop and MSCSC signed and unsigned covers. Some were posted, but not crew signed, while others were in a mint condition. While most of their quantities were more likely used as complete insurance covers, in some cases, not all had been used and were kept by that astronaut and his family, which could be the Mitchell covers referred to here. Are they "true" insurance covers, "No," but could very well fall into the category of "intended insurance covers." I do know for fact that Bishop gave each crewmen about a full 400-500 box or more of their mission cachet covers before their moon voyage. Many of those were used as complete crew insurance covers, mainly for Apollos 12 (less numbers though), 13, 14, and 16 (15 is another story). |
capoetc Member Posts: 2207 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-06-2020 02:53 PM
The Ed Mitchell cover sold for $241.50. |
bobslittlebro Member Posts: 200 From: Douglasville, Ga U.S.A. Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 08-06-2020 03:52 PM
Wow, $241.50! Unreal. |
NAAmodel#240 Member Posts: 321 From: Boston, Mass. Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 08-06-2020 06:49 PM
I offer the same cover (no COA) for $125 if anyone has an interest. |
NAAmodel#240 Member Posts: 321 From: Boston, Mass. Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 08-07-2020 07:43 PM
Sold (a couple of times over). Thanks for the interest. |