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  Armstrong-signed GT-9 cover: is it real?

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Author Topic:   Armstrong-signed GT-9 cover: is it real?
MikeDee
Member

Posts: 55
From: Staten Island, NY USA
Registered: Mar 2013

posted 09-18-2019 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MikeDee   Click Here to Email MikeDee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Going through another box of covers and came across this Gemini 9 cover that looks like it's signed by Neil Armstrong. Anyone have any thoughts on this signature?

I did some comparisons online but I'm always skeptical. This cover has been in storage for many years though. Hope to get some insight from you all.

chet
Member

Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-18-2019 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Most certainly an autopen, but unusual because it appears to be drawn by marker (and that it's on a G-9 cover). Probably needs to be examined in person or by very hi-res scan to be sure.

Eddie Bizub
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Posts: 81
From: Kissimmee, FL USA
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 09-18-2019 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eddie Bizub   Click Here to Email Eddie Bizub     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree its an Armstrong autopen. However, this is a Gemini-8 cover and not Gemini-9.

chet
Member

Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-18-2019 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I stand corrected, Eddie, yes a G-8 cover. I went by the description and so focused solely on the signature.

Mike Dixon
Member

Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-18-2019 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd like to see a matching Armstrong autopen pattern where the sweep back from the "G" doesn't come anywhere near to touching the "N".

stsmithva
Member

Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 09-19-2019 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stsmithva   Click Here to Email stsmithva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is interesting that the sweep back is so much shorter than usual. But those little differences pop up every few hundred autopens — the fact that 95% of it matches an autopen pattern is more important, from the slanted and crumpled "Neil" to a half-dozen other details in the "Armstrong."

Mike Dixon
Member

Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-19-2019 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I need more evidence to convince me before I'd declare it as an autopen.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 09-19-2019 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How about this? Here's the known autopen pattern aligned with the "Neil," which matches up almost exactly.

The "Armstrong" is distorted due to operator error; the autopen was mechanical and the pace at which the operator pulled the item being signed through stretched and compressed elements of the signature being applied.

Mike Dixon
Member

Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-19-2019 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Rob... I thought it was worth at least raising the question.

Ianhetho
Member

Posts: 109
From: Bogangar NSW Australia
Registered: May 2018

posted 09-22-2019 02:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ianhetho   Click Here to Email Ianhetho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's brilliant Robert. Where do you get those transparent overlays from?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 09-22-2019 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was done in Photoshop, using Mike's cover image as the base layer and then adding the appropriate autopen pattern (from the Astro Autopens website) to a new layer and then setting that layer to 50 percent opacity.

Ianhetho
Member

Posts: 109
From: Bogangar NSW Australia
Registered: May 2018

posted 09-22-2019 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ianhetho   Click Here to Email Ianhetho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Robert. That sounds a little complicated for me.

I did see (somewhere) some clear pages with Autopen patterns printed on them, they where in a book or folder. I think it was on eBay. I would like to get one if anybody knows where one is.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 396
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 10-05-2019 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hate to disagree with anyone on this matter, because I'm definitely not an expert on autopens, but I'm thinking it's a real Armstrong. When I zoom in on the signature, I see definite layering on the ink. The way the t crosses over the A for instance and the swipe of the g is something that does not happen in an autopenned signature. At least none of the autopens I've ever seen.

The way the signature fades as he writes is not something that an autopenned signature does. Again, I'm no expert, and I'm not saying it's real, but it does LOOK real to me.

I get what Robert is saying, but if it was signed by him during the time of Gemini 8, then his actual signature would look very similar to his autopen of the time. Also, the Armstrong does not appear to match up with Robert's autopen example. The G in the autopen goes all the way to the N in Neil. It doesn't do that in the cover signature.

This is clearly something that Zarelli should look at.

bobslittlebro
Member

Posts: 179
From: Douglasville, Ga U.S.A.
Registered: Nov 2009

posted 10-05-2019 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobslittlebro   Click Here to Email bobslittlebro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will lay odds Steve Zarelli says its an autopen.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 10-05-2019 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Safe bet.
quote:
Originally posted by schnappsicle:
I hate to disagree with anyone on this matter, because I'm definitely not an expert on autopens, but I'm thinking it's a real Armstrong.
An Autopen is a mechanical armature that holds a pen and signs following a template. So, lines will cross in the same way they would if a human hand was holding the pen.

Regarding your second point, the marker used in this example does look a little more “natural” than the pen they typically used.

The signature is a 90% match to the Autopen and the variances can be attributed to distortion in how it was applied in my opinion. I’d be shocked if it wasn't an Autopen.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 10-05-2019 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another factor is placement. Armstrong would not have signed over the text on the cover. He would have signed in the white space.

JohnPaul56
Member

Posts: 180
From: Montclair, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 10-06-2019 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnPaul56     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking at the overlay from photoshop, the first name matches exactly.....it has to be an autopen.

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