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  Apollo 17 flown flag and patch display value

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Author Topic:   Apollo 17 flown flag and patch display value
MIsterTrunk
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Posts: 73
From: Moscow, Russia- Benidorm, Spain
Registered: Feb 2015

posted 04-09-2018 05:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MIsterTrunk   Click Here to Email MIsterTrunk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm looking for the opinions regarding the value and rarity of Apollo 17 crew signed display that also includes USSR flag and patch flown to the moon. The display was presented to the Soviet Ambassador to US. Thank you.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 51679
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-09-2018 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What is the provenance behind of this display?

MIsterTrunk
Member

Posts: 73
From: Moscow, Russia- Benidorm, Spain
Registered: Feb 2015

posted 04-09-2018 07:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MIsterTrunk   Click Here to Email MIsterTrunk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The display came directly from the ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin family. They have recently sold some items (mainly politics related) from his archive at local Russian auction houses. Some space autographs were: William A. Anders and Soyuz-Apollo...

Greggy_D
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Posts: 1008
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 04-09-2018 09:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greggy_D   Click Here to Email Greggy_D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It appears the Apollo 17 and ASTP inscriptions are written in the same hand. The first name is spelled differently in each. "Ambassor" is used in the Apollo 17 piece. Both inscriptions slope upward as you travel left to right.

MIsterTrunk
Member

Posts: 73
From: Moscow, Russia- Benidorm, Spain
Registered: Feb 2015

posted 04-09-2018 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MIsterTrunk   Click Here to Email MIsterTrunk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dobrynin worked as the ambassador to US from 1962 to 1986, so it's quite possible that both inscriptions were made by the same secretary in the 70s...

David Carey
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Posts: 1012
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Registered: Mar 2009

posted 04-09-2018 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Carey   Click Here to Email David Carey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't know about value, rarity, or other sigs but the Schmitt signature seems way off to me.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 51679
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-09-2018 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Schmitt signature is what prompted me to ask about provenance as well. It just looks off.

I also don't recall seeing a flown Beta cloth presentation where the patch was trimmed such that it was circular. That is, I am assuming the patch is Beta cloth. Can you confirm?

I'm not suggesting the display in not authentic, especially if it came directly from the ambassador's estate. It just is notably different from other presentations.

I do find it a bit odd though, that they would misspell ambassador and still present it as is.

MIsterTrunk
Member

Posts: 73
From: Moscow, Russia- Benidorm, Spain
Registered: Feb 2015

posted 04-09-2018 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MIsterTrunk   Click Here to Email MIsterTrunk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not the owner of the display — I will try to get more information about the patch.
I googled "Ambassor" and I found many articles using this word. Is it really misspelled or is it used as the short for the "ambassador" in US?

I agree the display isn't common, so I'm trying to get as much opinions as possible. I also found a video interview with Dobrynin taken at his home in 2009, and the display can be seen on the wall.

Steve Zarelli
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Posts: 747
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 04-09-2018 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my opinion, all three signatures are not authentic.

Assuming the display itself is authentic, I believe this was likely proxy signed by the "artist" in the PAO.

MIsterTrunk
Member

Posts: 73
From: Moscow, Russia- Benidorm, Spain
Registered: Feb 2015

posted 04-09-2018 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MIsterTrunk   Click Here to Email MIsterTrunk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Steve. So if the signatures are not authentic, I consider the value of the whole display isn't very high because it's likely impossible to confirm that the flag and patch were actually flown.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 51679
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-09-2018 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MIsterTrunk:
Is it really misspelled or is it used as the short for the "ambassador" in US?
The accepted abbreviation for ambassador is amb. I do see the search results, but they appear to be misspellings.

Guswastheman
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Posts: 158
From: Gresham, OR
Registered: Apr 2011

posted 04-09-2018 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Guswastheman   Click Here to Email Guswastheman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have overlays for autopen and authentic astronaut signatures, if you can email me the autographs at actual size, I can confirm authenticity for you.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 51679
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-09-2018 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think overlays will help in this situation. They are not autopen signatures.

I believe Steve is correct about these being proxy signatures (which is odd unto itself, given the recipient).

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 3761
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 04-09-2018 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By all means, as Steve has pointed out, all three crewmen signatures are not authentic in my opinion as well. The Cernan and Schmitt are not close, and somewhat with the Evans too. Rather the Russian flag and Beta patch were flown is another issue altogether.

jtheoret
Member

Posts: 400
From: Albuquerque, NM USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 04-09-2018 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jtheoret   Click Here to Email jtheoret     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guswastheman:
I have overlays for autopen and authentic astronaut signatures...
Overlays wouldn't be any help with determining authenticity whether they were autopens or not (and even for autopens, there can be variations such that an overlay may not be any help). Certainly overlays of even authentic signatures wouldn't account for normal variations in signing.

Clearly as has been indicated, these are neither autopen nor genuine signatures. There is no substitute for careful study and a trained eye.

All times are CT (US)

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