Author
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Topic: 191733984201: Apollo 12 flown U.S. flag
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Chuckster01 Member Posts: 873 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-08-2015 07:16 AM
I wanted to get feedback on this eBay offered Apollo 12 flown flag. Looks a bit off to me. Any thoughts? |
Go4Launch Member Posts: 542 From: Seminole, Fla. Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 11-08-2015 09:53 AM
I have an identical flag and certificate if that's helpful, and I have seen others just like it. |
Chuckster01 Member Posts: 873 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-08-2015 10:32 AM
My issue was not with the display but with the flag itself. It looks as if the flag does not have sewn edges? I thought all flown flags had the edges sewn I may be wrong |
bobslittlebro Member Posts: 179 From: Douglasville, Ga U.S.A. Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 11-08-2015 11:43 AM
I have always been intrigued by these items and I don't know much about them. Is there any other means of authenticity other than a page with printing saying it was carried on board Apollo 12 to the moon? It seems like it would easy to print this page and add an ordinary flag to the display. |
David Carey Member Posts: 782 From: Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 11-08-2015 12:27 PM
I'm with you, Chuck.The edges are clearly (and unevenly) cut, the flag seemingly laid in place, and I don't see any of the adhesive staining that often occurs from mounting. My A16 flag is stitched all sides and no matter what the mission I've never seen cut/unseamed edges on any flown flag presentations. There may be genuine origins but the item certainly looks altered. In my mind this would corrupt any confidence in the claimed flown status. |
Chuckster01 Member Posts: 873 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-08-2015 01:03 PM
I have more then a dozen flown flags. Not all show adhesive marking through the flag as I believe this is dependent on sun exposure (my thoughts). But all have sewn edges and all are carefully applied and centered on the award or display and this one also seems very light in color compared to other Apollo 12 flags I have seen. Again this is just my opinion. |
SpaceAholic Member Posts: 4437 From: Sierra Vista, Arizona Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-08-2015 01:47 PM
Authenticating these presentations is challenging; they are relatively easy to counterfeit and given the valuations commanded there is high payoff/low risk for an individual intent on doing so. |
Go4Launch Member Posts: 542 From: Seminole, Fla. Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 11-08-2015 07:01 PM
The eBay flag appears to be essentially identical to mine; the top stripe is also slightly narrower than the rest, and mine also has some loose blue threads at the top of the star field as the edges are not sewn. It was also never affixed to the card so there are no glue traces.I have very high confidence mine is authentic as it came from a secretary in the MSC Flight Directors Office who received it in 1970. I'm not an expert on the type(s) of US flags flown on this mission, but at least mine matches this example very closely. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3110 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 11-09-2015 01:37 AM
The examples in this format I've seen have the flag laid under the mat with a rectangular window cut into it, thus hiding the uncut edges of the flag.It would be interesting to see what's under the flag in this example and to know if John's example had a cut-out in the mat or not. |
Solarplexus Member Posts: 107 From: Norway Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-09-2015 09:15 AM
Here is a similar flag and auction result. |
Go4Launch Member Posts: 542 From: Seminole, Fla. Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 11-09-2015 09:36 AM
To answer Chris' question — no, mine does not have a window cut into the presentation, but it's interesting that some do. I would also add that the eBay seller has apparently added the mat with the thin red border (nothing wrong with that, just noting it for consistency). Also, I have been looking for the foil or metal plaque on the eBay example for years; mine has the same design there but the plaque is printed. I appreciate the new example turned up by Solarplexus; in my opinion, the eBay example is genuine. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3110 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 11-09-2015 09:58 AM
I would say that the Solarplexus example above looks to have a matted flag (although the image is too low-res to be certain). Matted examples make up the majority of examples I've seen (with the eBay example and John's the only two exceptions I've seen/heard of so far).I've seen quite a few examples of these Apollo 12 presentations with printed plaques but probably a majority with silver foil decal plaques. |
Solarplexus Member Posts: 107 From: Norway Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-09-2015 10:33 AM
Here is another one. Go to image 2. |
Chuckster01 Member Posts: 873 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-09-2015 05:31 PM
All of the photos being posted are far too low a resolution to see if the edges are sewn or not. I personally do not own an Apollo 12 flag and that was my reason for starting this thread. If you have an Apollo 12 flown flag please post some good pictures as I am trying to educate myself on the detail differences of Apollo flags by mission. And thanks for all the feedback. |
David Carey Member Posts: 782 From: Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 11-10-2015 01:28 PM
And a couple others to add to the mix from Goldberg's June 2013 auction: Lot 444 Lot 443While some photos are lacking, John's example along with the Goldberg items make it pretty clear there are A12-associated flags that lack the sewn edges. The Goldberg Lot 444 description says "certificates may indicate that these flags are prototypes for similar presentation pieces". Not sure exactly what to make of that, but does it raise the prospect of mockups made with potentially unflown flags? The accompanying note shown for lot 444 reflects someone fine tuning of the wording for Chris Kraft's flag, including removal of surface-flown language. Interesting, but the note's direct tie to the lot's flag presentation seems a little speculative. The previous lot 443 - also A12 - is indicated to come from the same consignor and shares the un-sewn edge and condition issues of 444 but with a differing mat overlay. It's a bit hard to imagine a NASA alteration (harsher words could apply) to flown flags, but perhaps the decision to overlay a mat meant the sewn edges had to be cut to lay flat as the Goldberg listings mention. Yikes! My 'genuine origins' comment stands but I'd still be wary of trimmed and detached examples lacking any other solid provenance.
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spaced out Member Posts: 3110 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 11-10-2015 04:56 PM
The Goldberg Lot 444 example clearly shows the trimmed edges of the flag exposed by the warping of the mat.In the matted examples I've seen (as I mention above these represent the majority of such presentations) the mat is thin and lays virtually flat with the backing which is consistent with the use of a trimmed flag as shown in this lot. I don't believe hemmed edges could have been matted in this way. I've sent the seller a question to see if the flag in this case is loose and to know if there's a window cut in the mat behind it. |
white_knights New Member Posts: 5 From: lancaster, Ca. US Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-23-2015 10:42 PM
Heritage Lot 41106. 2010 Heritage example with flag mounted behind window in mat. Thin blue border similar to red border example on eBay. |