Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Opinions & Advice
  191733984201: Apollo 12 flown U.S. flag

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   191733984201: Apollo 12 flown U.S. flag
Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-08-2015 07:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wanted to get feedback on this eBay offered Apollo 12 flown flag. Looks a bit off to me. Any thoughts?

Go4Launch
Member

Posts: 542
From: Seminole, Fla.
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 11-08-2015 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Go4Launch   Click Here to Email Go4Launch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an identical flag and certificate if that's helpful, and I have seen others just like it.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-08-2015 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My issue was not with the display but with the flag itself. It looks as if the flag does not have sewn edges? I thought all flown flags had the edges sewn I may be wrong

bobslittlebro
Member

Posts: 179
From: Douglasville, Ga U.S.A.
Registered: Nov 2009

posted 11-08-2015 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobslittlebro   Click Here to Email bobslittlebro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have always been intrigued by these items and I don't know much about them. Is there any other means of authenticity other than a page with printing saying it was carried on board Apollo 12 to the moon? It seems like it would easy to print this page and add an ordinary flag to the display.

David Carey
Member

Posts: 782
From:
Registered: Mar 2009

posted 11-08-2015 12:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Carey   Click Here to Email David Carey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm with you, Chuck.

The edges are clearly (and unevenly) cut, the flag seemingly laid in place, and I don't see any of the adhesive staining that often occurs from mounting.

My A16 flag is stitched all sides and no matter what the mission I've never seen cut/unseamed edges on any flown flag presentations.

There may be genuine origins but the item certainly looks altered. In my mind this would corrupt any confidence in the claimed flown status.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-08-2015 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have more then a dozen flown flags. Not all show adhesive marking through the flag as I believe this is dependent on sun exposure (my thoughts).

But all have sewn edges and all are carefully applied and centered on the award or display and this one also seems very light in color compared to other Apollo 12 flags I have seen. Again this is just my opinion.

SpaceAholic
Member

Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-08-2015 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Authenticating these presentations is challenging; they are relatively easy to counterfeit and given the valuations commanded there is high payoff/low risk for an individual intent on doing so.

Go4Launch
Member

Posts: 542
From: Seminole, Fla.
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 11-08-2015 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Go4Launch   Click Here to Email Go4Launch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The eBay flag appears to be essentially identical to mine; the top stripe is also slightly narrower than the rest, and mine also has some loose blue threads at the top of the star field as the edges are not sewn. It was also never affixed to the card so there are no glue traces.

I have very high confidence mine is authentic as it came from a secretary in the MSC Flight Directors Office who received it in 1970.

I'm not an expert on the type(s) of US flags flown on this mission, but at least mine matches this example very closely.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-09-2015 01:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The examples in this format I've seen have the flag laid under the mat with a rectangular window cut into it, thus hiding the uncut edges of the flag.

It would be interesting to see what's under the flag in this example and to know if John's example had a cut-out in the mat or not.

Solarplexus
Member

Posts: 107
From: Norway
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-09-2015 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solarplexus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a similar flag and auction result.

Go4Launch
Member

Posts: 542
From: Seminole, Fla.
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 11-09-2015 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Go4Launch   Click Here to Email Go4Launch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To answer Chris' question — no, mine does not have a window cut into the presentation, but it's interesting that some do. I would also add that the eBay seller has apparently added the mat with the thin red border (nothing wrong with that, just noting it for consistency).

Also, I have been looking for the foil or metal plaque on the eBay example for years; mine has the same design there but the plaque is printed.

I appreciate the new example turned up by Solarplexus; in my opinion, the eBay example is genuine.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-09-2015 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would say that the Solarplexus example above looks to have a matted flag (although the image is too low-res to be certain). Matted examples make up the majority of examples I've seen (with the eBay example and John's the only two exceptions I've seen/heard of so far).

I've seen quite a few examples of these Apollo 12 presentations with printed plaques but probably a majority with silver foil decal plaques.

Solarplexus
Member

Posts: 107
From: Norway
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-09-2015 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solarplexus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is another one. Go to image 2.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 11-09-2015 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All of the photos being posted are far too low a resolution to see if the edges are sewn or not. I personally do not own an Apollo 12 flag and that was my reason for starting this thread.

If you have an Apollo 12 flown flag please post some good pictures as I am trying to educate myself on the detail differences of Apollo flags by mission. And thanks for all the feedback.

David Carey
Member

Posts: 782
From:
Registered: Mar 2009

posted 11-10-2015 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David Carey   Click Here to Email David Carey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And a couple others to add to the mix from Goldberg's June 2013 auction: Lot 444
Lot 443

While some photos are lacking, John's example along with the Goldberg items make it pretty clear there are A12-associated flags that lack the sewn edges.

The Goldberg Lot 444 description says "certificates may indicate that these flags are prototypes for similar presentation pieces". Not sure exactly what to make of that, but does it raise the prospect of mockups made with potentially unflown flags?

The accompanying note shown for lot 444 reflects someone fine tuning of the wording for Chris Kraft's flag, including removal of surface-flown language. Interesting, but the note's direct tie to the lot's flag presentation seems a little speculative.

The previous lot 443 - also A12 - is indicated to come from the same consignor and shares the un-sewn edge and condition issues of 444 but with a differing mat overlay.

It's a bit hard to imagine a NASA alteration (harsher words could apply) to flown flags, but perhaps the decision to overlay a mat meant the sewn edges had to be cut to lay flat as the Goldberg listings mention. Yikes!

My 'genuine origins' comment stands but I'd still be wary of trimmed and detached examples lacking any other solid provenance.

spaced out
Member

Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-10-2015 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Goldberg Lot 444 example clearly shows the trimmed edges of the flag exposed by the warping of the mat.

In the matted examples I've seen (as I mention above these represent the majority of such presentations) the mat is thin and lays virtually flat with the backing which is consistent with the use of a trimmed flag as shown in this lot. I don't believe hemmed edges could have been matted in this way.

I've sent the seller a question to see if the flag in this case is loose and to know if there's a window cut in the mat behind it.

white_knights
New Member

Posts: 5
From: lancaster, Ca. US
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 11-23-2015 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for white_knights     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heritage Lot 41106. 2010 Heritage example with flag mounted behind window in mat. Thin blue border similar to red border example on eBay.

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 2020 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement