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Author
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Topic: 321865139856: Fake vintage NASA photographs
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spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-15-2015 06:29 AM
   
Something to be very wary of here: eBay item 321865139856 is a listing of three beautiful NASA photos with red numbers and apparently "A KODAK PAPER" watermarks on the back.However, all may not be as it seems as the seller's feedback includes the following negative feedback from an earlier sale: "Photos being sold were counterfeits of vintage NASA photos-phony watermarks too.". Looking again at the listing it's worth noting the exact wording of the title: "NASA APOLLO 11 3 x PHOTO A KODAK PAPER RED SERIAL" and of the listing text: "3 x NASA Photos from Apollo 11. ... A KODAK PAPER on the reverse."Nowhere does he explicitly say "vintage" and of course he says "A KODAK PAPER on the reverse" without saying explicitly that this is a watermark. It could be just printed text on the back of the photos, as indeed seems to be the case here. The idea presumably is to be able to claim that the item is 'as described' and that therefore the buyer can't get a refund. The fixed price listing is also designed to prompt a quick purchase by someone trying to get a bargain. This is the first time I've seen fake vintage NASA photos offered, but now people need to be very cautious indeed. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 09-15-2015 02:51 PM
Great post and indeed something new and dishonest in the world of collecting. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 09-15-2015 04:26 PM
Good spot Chris! |
SpaceCadet1983
Member Posts: 227
From: United States
Registered: May 2012
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posted 09-15-2015 04:42 PM
Thank you for the heads-up, Chris! |
mach3valkyrie
Member Posts: 719
From: Albany, Oregon
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 09-15-2015 08:59 PM
It seems there is no area in our collecting hobby immune from someone trying to make a fast buck by deception. Thanks for sharing your information Chris. |
datkatz
Member Posts: 176
From: New York, NY
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 09-15-2015 09:25 PM
I'm the guy who posted that feedback. It gets worse.I returned the photos for a refund, but did not use tracking — just too expensive from the US to England. The seller claimed he never received the returned photos. No refund. |
neo1022
Member Posts: 281
From: Santa Monica, CA
Registered: Jun 2013
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posted 09-16-2015 12:03 AM
It's worth opening a complaint with eBay. These days, they tend to side with the customer, which means honest sellers sometimes get screwed (but only rarely), and dishonest sellers have the burden of proof shifted back to them. Your mileage may vary, but it's worth a shot. Do you have any proof of mailing? That would certainly help... |
rgarner
Member Posts: 1193
From: Shepperton, United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 09-16-2015 03:53 AM
The part that gets me is that it really isn't that hard to make money in the collecting arena. You just need to invest wisely so why not make the effort and actually do the right thing. Your conscience would be clear and your wallet would benefit. How do people not see this? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-16-2015 06:28 AM
Unfortunately someone has now bought these for $220.  |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 09-16-2015 10:10 AM
Doesn't the watermark on the back give it away? The vintage ones I have, have a much more subtle watermark. The watermarks on these look like new photo paper. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-16-2015 01:32 PM
It certainly looks odd but presumably it's easier to print it more faintly so you can't count on that giving it away in future.I believe the seller was/is a cS member too... |
Wehaveliftoff
Member Posts: 2343
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 09-19-2015 08:49 PM
Since PayPal split from eBay, I wouldn't necessarily count on eBay being on anyone's side with forgeries, fakes... |
One Big Monkey
Member Posts: 169
From: West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 09-20-2015 01:03 AM
One thing I've noticed over a few years now of monitoring eBay on a daily basis for Apollo items is that it pays to do just that: look all the time. I have seen many examples of items listed as 'rare' or 'uncommon' that appear again and again from the same seller with the same photos, so they are obviously nothing of the sort even if they are genuine.Some things I've bought despite my suspicions - a length of cloth with an Apollo 11 landing design that I'd seen come up before with the same photos, letter of authenticity and all. The cloth design is genuine (it is even in a museum), the manufacturer is a real one, but the date on the letter and envelope don't quite tally up and the fact that it was the same photos rang alarms. The fact that I got it for £0.99 means I am less concerned - it's a cool fabric  Other things I've backed away from because the details don't chime. Do your research, even on the cheap items. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 09-20-2015 07:13 AM
Another good word of advice when looking at CoA's. Always look to see if there is contact information from the authenticator, can you contact them? is the organization issuing the CoA listed on the web anywhere? is there a picture of the item listed or just a vague hand written description? A lot of time there are huge red flags that we miss or ignore, |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 09-20-2015 12:49 PM
I would never rely on a CoA from an eBay listing. They too can be faked, ask Steve Zarelli. Most of them simply have a type written one and when you look up the company on the web, they do not exist. Anyone can make up a CoA. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 09-20-2015 03:53 PM
It is true anyone can make up a CoA and that is my point. Steve Zarelli, Ken Havekotte and many others are fantastic at authenticating memorabilia and autographs. These people are always reachable and can be trusted implicitly. There will always be a con man to copy, forge, fabricate or manipulate a CoA but for me a CoA from the above listed individuals is my assurance of a real item whatever the cost. A reputation takes many years to earn and few in the field put in the time to earn it. Thank you guys for being an inspiration and an aid to the avid/obsessed collector like me. |
One Big Monkey
Member Posts: 169
From: West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 10-06-2015 03:15 PM
What are people's thoughts on this one, given that there is a letter of the alphabet in shot that shouldn't be there.  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-06-2015 03:22 PM
The history behind that mark is explained here: In 2001 Steve Troy of Lunaranomalies.com undertook a lengthy investigation. After obtaining transparencies from different sources connected with NASA, he failed to see the mark either on the masters used prior to 1997 or on the new masters. Yet the photos on official NASA web sites clearly show it. Following up with the Lunar and Planetary Institute (LPI) in Houston, they discovered that one of the prints in their collection was the source of the mark. At some point that print had been scanned and has since been widely distributed on the Internet. Troy and LPI officials studied the print under a microscope and discovered that it was indeed far more likely to be a hair or other fiber on the photographic paper onto which AS16-107-17446 had been printed. |
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