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Author
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Topic: Illegitamately-obtained/sold NASA flown award
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Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 12-05-2014 05:21 AM
   
I purchased a flown in space award off eBay several months ago the was awarded to a private organization and not an individual. In trying to research the provenance of the item I ended up talking to the astronaut who flew the items in space. She said the award has been missing since there organization moved their corporate office two years ago. She said although the award was missing they had no idea what had happened to it. She also said that according to NASA rules any awards given to organizations cannot be sold and should have never been on eBay. My problem is I contacted the person I purchased it from and he seems to have also been an unwitting participant saying he also bought it on eBay two years ago and cannot contact the seller who sold it to him. I feel I must return this to the rightful owner and forfeit the amount paid. Do you guys think I should go after the person who sold the item to me? I can lodge a complaint with eBay and PayPal, but I feel then the loss moves to him and not the person who took the item in the first place. What would you do? |
Lunar rock nut
Member Posts: 911
From: Oklahoma city, Oklahoma U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 12-05-2014 06:28 AM
Kind of a no brainer. I would return it to the owner and begin the process with eBay. It may take some time. eBay may or may not help out. At least you will have a clear conscience! |
Mike_The_First
Member Posts: 436
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 12-05-2014 06:44 AM
If you do, I'd tell the seller in advance so they don't feel blindsided.Then they can do the same thing to recover their money from the person who sold it to them. You may also want to let them know how they can do that so that they don't feel like you just ripped them off. |
Lunar rock nut
Member Posts: 911
From: Oklahoma city, Oklahoma U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 12-05-2014 07:08 AM
I would also explain my dilemma to the higher ups at this company. Perhaps they will pay the charges for the return and possibly offer some kind of reward or restitution for the return. Actually this company needs to figure out who sold it in the first place. |
rjurek349
Member Posts: 1190
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 12-05-2014 09:19 AM
You obviously have to return it, no option. And it is the right thing to do. Not sure how much you paid, but it also might not be worth the cost/effort to go after the potentially cascading chain of custody. But you are possibly not totally out, if you just choose to return it to the original owner organization. As mentioned, they might be willing to defray your costs to re-acquire the item. (i.e, not to make a profit, but just reward you for your efforts). Or, perhaps, talk to a tax advisor, or their tax experts at the organization. If they have a charitable foundation, depending on how you structure this "gift back" to the original organization, you might be able to write-off your costs to acquire, research, and return the artifact to its rightful owner. (Heck, you might be able to do it outright if just returning it to them by claiming it as an "investment loss"). Either way, I am sure the institution that once had it would be willing to work with you on this angle as well -- as it sounds like they have been looking for it for some time. Not sure if all of that is possible, but it is worth a shot to look into all of your options. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 12-05-2014 09:31 AM
Aside from the concerns about how to handle this, what an awesome gesture it is on your part to do the right thing! Unfortunately, there are some "unsavory" people in the world always looking to benefit from others' losses. If I were in charge of the organization that lost this, I would cover your expenses no questions asked and credit you with returning the piece to its' rightful owners. Nice job. I hope they identify the person who stole it. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-05-2014 03:15 PM
An interesting situation here, but I would agree, overall, with what all the others have suggested. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to return the award presentation back to the original private organization it had been awarded to. Besides, the organization did want it back, correct? I think Rich Jurek explained and covered all the angles and areas quite well. Let us know how it works out from all the parties involved. Good luck! |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 12-05-2014 04:18 PM
I am returning this award (ships in the morning) to the astronaut who originally
flew the award. She has indicated she will try and locate at least a flown flag from the same mission for my collection as a thank you. For me it is worth a few hundred dollars to know its back where it belongs. It is after all a one of a kind item with great meaning for her and that is all I need to know. If it is okay with her I will post pictures of the item and her name. Just want to be sure she is OK with that also. |
Cozmosis22
Member Posts: 968
From: Texas * Earth
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted 12-05-2014 04:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
She also said that according to NASA rules any awards given to organizations cannot be sold and should have never been on eBay.
Interesting. Never heard of that "rule" before. Suppose there is an official link to it in writing somewhere? Hoping that "rule" does not extend back into the MGA era. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 12-05-2014 04:43 PM
To be clear, she said that "presentations flown for organizations were not to be sold for profit and items can never be flown for resale or for profit." I have no idea if this is the case it is just what I was told. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-05-2014 05:22 PM
Chuck, after our phone call just now, I did check some of my earlier NASA letters that pertained to agency/government flown award presentations, and from/to astronauts themselves.In front of me is a letter written to Walt Kapryan in 1982 by Dick Smith, the Center Director of KSC during the early shuttle program years. As you may know, Dr. Kapryan himself is a noted KSC-NASA official and an original Space Task Group member. Of course, he later served as an Apollo Launch Director for Apollos 12 thru 17, all the Skylabs, and ASTP. In the letter from Smith, a close friend and associate of Kapryan for many years, Smith said in the last paragraph to Kapryan, "This flag (a flown American flag from STS-1 on a COA) must not be used for commercial or fund raising purposes or for personal gain." Wow! I've only seen such a reference as this twice before in other NASA letters that I have from various collections of mine. It does make me wonder, though, if there are any kind of restrictive regulations out there prohibiting a space center worker from possibly selling and commercializing in anyway (including for fundraising campaign purposes) his award-given presentations(s) from the space agency (NASA) itself! Perhaps Robert can shed more light on the topic. Heck, as we all know, many similar flown US flags, patches, etc. have been sold many times in the open market, especially on eBay and space auction outlets. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-05-2014 08:50 PM
With regards to what the astronaut has told Chuck, she is probably referring to the restriction that was placed on items to be flown in the official flight kits and personal preference kits. The Code of Federal Regulations states: Items carried in an OFK or a PPK will not be sold, transferred for sale, used or transferred for personal gain, or used or transferred for any commercial or fund-raising purpose. Based on my own discussions, many astronauts have misinterpreted the above policy as meaning that items flown in the OFK (for organizations) and PPKs (for individuals) could never be sold. That's not the case. The regulation only applied to the astronaut so long as s/he is a NASA employee. Likewise, it only applied to the recipient at the time the item was being flown or presented. If the astronaut had reason to believe the recipient was looking to solely profit from having the item included in the OFK or PPK, then it could not be flown. |
Mike_The_First
Member Posts: 436
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 12-06-2014 03:58 AM
That makes more sense.I was wondering what power NASA had to prevent private entities from selling something that they owned. It was starting to remind me of the Chuck Yeager autograph argument, only without the waiver. Instead of preventing something like what Yeager wants to prevent (profiting in any way, shape, or form), this seems like it's preventing another Apollo 15 cover scandal. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-06-2014 06:17 AM
One thing to add: if the recipient was a NASA organization (a team or office) there may be additional restrictions on transferring the item from the organization to an individual in that office or on that team such that it could be ever privately sold. In that case, the specifics of the situation would need to be examined more closely. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 12-06-2014 07:31 AM
My question is if there is an award given to an organization, not an individual, and that entity is still intact, who would have the right to sell that item as it was never given to an individual but to the organization as a whole? Unless accompanied by a letter of release how would you know it was lawfully released by that organization for sale? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-06-2014 07:40 AM
It really depends on the organization. If it is a federal organization (e.g. a NASA office) than transferring the item to an individual is more difficult than if it is a company, school or other private institution. It can be done but it may not be as simple as the manager of the division deciding to divvy up flown displays among his team members. |
Mike_The_First
Member Posts: 436
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 12-06-2014 11:31 AM
Does the astronaut you spoke to work for this company? How sure are they that the item was never officially "released"? |
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