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  Authenticity of Bill Anders-autographed cover

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Author Topic:   Authenticity of Bill Anders-autographed cover
jonspace
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posted 03-08-2014 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jonspace   Click Here to Email jonspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A fellow cS member is offering me this Bill Anders signature in my quest to complete my Apollo 8 autograph set and wanted to invite comments (his suggestion since my eye is still untrained).

chet
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posted 03-11-2014 02:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With no reflection on the person offering this cover whatsoever, this Anders may very well be authentic, but in my opinion it is no certainty; Anders is usually a tough call.

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-11-2014 08:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my opinion, the signature is likely authentic. But, as I told Jonathan privately, I'd want to see it in hand and up close to make a more definitive call. With Anders it is all about speed and flow. The "shape" is relatively easy for a forger to replicate. But to sign as fast and carelessly as Anders does -- and still maintain the right shape -- would be much more difficult.

chet
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posted 03-11-2014 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another thing to consider is the signature in the context of the cover. Anders' signature as "W.A. Anders" is likely, I believe, to be an "earlier" version of his signature (i.e. as opposed to just "Bill Anders"), so if the signature is authentic it's likely this envelope was signed quite some time ago. If that is true, how likely is it someone would later affix a Pioneer stamp (issued in 1975), and have the envelope postmarked for the liftoff of STS-2 (Nov.12, 1981)?

Unfortunately it seems more likely someone (not Anders) added the signature to an otherwise (relatively) worthless cover.

Again, the signature could certainly be authentic, as Steve points out, but in the whole I'd be extra wary of this particular example.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-11-2014 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was a common practice with some astronaut autograph collectors throughout the 1960/70s to have signatures applied on blank covers for various reasons. Later, collectors would have them postmarked for major space events as they were unfolding.

For me personally, I do feel the "W A Anders" presented here is a perfectly genuine signature, and perhaps one of his first early signing patterns of the Group 3 astronaut that flew around the moon on Apollo 8.

From my own collections of Anders, yes indeed, he did sign in a similar pattern, along with another style or two, during his first years as a new recruit astronaut in "basic training" so-to-speak in 1963-65.

I've got a couple of similar envelope covers signed like this, a few letters of Anders from this time period and later in 1969, along with 2-3 signed portraits of the early Apollo veteran, including one of the small b/w portrait pictures of him.

Perhaps a "William A. Anders" autograph may indeed be one of the rarest of him, however, I do have an early signed portrait of the Apollo lunar voyager in this fashion that I believe to be authentic and not an autopen.

chet
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posted 03-11-2014 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I mentioned, I do believe the signature presented here could be authentic, but the context makes it more suspect.

As Ken corroborates, this is likely an early version of Anders' autograph (if it's an authentic signature.) If that is the case, Gen. Anders likely signed this envelope before the application of the STS-2 launch date postmark (although the Apollo 8 stamp may very well have been on the envelope at the time he signed it.) To my mind adding such a postmark to a cover with Anders' signature already on it (especially with the Apollo 8 stamp present) would be an odd thing for a collector to do, since Anders had no obvious connection to the STS-2 event, and the added postmark would only detract from the association of his signature with the Apollo 8 stamp. I also find it highly unlikely he would have signed the cover "W.A. Anders" at any time after the application of that postmark, so for me the whole picture just doesn't add up. Yes, the signature could be an authentic one, but this cover, in my opinion, tells a very odd story.

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-11-2014 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I certainly understand Chet's logic, but to turn it around, if it was a forgery, wouldn't a forger -- especially one at this skill level -- have picked a much better cover as his canvas? Why use this cover when an easily obtained Apollo 8 or Space Achievements cover would fetch significantly more?

In my experience, I have seen a number of early style signatures (undoubtedly authentic) on covers that were certainly postmarked at a later date.

chet
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posted 03-11-2014 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Zarelli:
Why use this cover when an easily obtained Apollo 8 or Space Achievements cover would fetch significantly more?
A very good question... for which there's a good (in my opinion) answer! A forger might have to make several "passes" to get a signature that looks good enough to pass muster. In that case it would make sense to use less valuable and/or more easily obtainable covers than (in this instance) covers postmarked or with cachets for Apollo 8, which can be quite the more costly proposition for a "canvas stack".

I'm not saying this signature isn't authentic, but applying Gerry M.'s "mantra" of "looking at the big picture", it's only prudent to weigh all the factors involved.

(Not that Steve Z. or Ken H. need to be told that at all, but it bears repeating now and then.)

I also think it's less likely for a collector to postmark an already signed cover with a date of a wholly unrelated event to the person who signed. (I too have seen signed covers later postmarked with other dates such as flight anniversaries and so forth, but this cover strikes me as a particularly strange choice for a collector to have done this way.)

Robert Pearlman
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posted 03-11-2014 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do we know that Bill Anders wasn't present for the STS-2 launch, given that his fellow Apollo-era astronaut Joe Engle was aboard?

The simplest connection for this cover would have been if Anders signed it at the launch, but given the signature style, maybe someone had it postmarked accordingly as a memento of having met him there?

(That said, isn't Anders known for changing his autograph style at whim to do just this, trip up collectors? If so, is it possible he continued using his old style beyond when it was popular?)

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-11-2014 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
(Not that Steve Z. or Ken H. need to be told that at all, but it bears repeating now and then.)
Understood... and MINT's words are always ringing in my head. LOL.

But the mass produced Space Achievements covers with nice artwork routinely sell for less than $2.

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-11-2014 04:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
...maybe someone had it postmarked accordingly as a memento of having met him there?
Or, did Anders sign an uncanceled envelope with the Apollo 8 stamp on it... then years later someone added the extra stamps and had it canceled in 1981?

The possibilities could be endless.

chet
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posted 03-11-2014 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So we have three (more or less likely) possibilities:
  1. Anders signed the envelope when it was blank (or had just the Earthrise stamp on it), and someone then had it postmarked with the launch date of STS-2.

  2. Anders signed the cover (in an unusual earlier style) on or after November 12, 1981.

  3. Someone forged an early style Anders signature to an inexpensive cover.
Unfortunately, I find myself hard-pressed to go with #1 or #2 as more likely than #3.

jonspace
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posted 03-11-2014 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jonspace   Click Here to Email jonspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The item is on its way to me. As soon as I get it, I will be sending it to Steve Zarelli. Sure hope its the real deal. My goal is to complete my Apollo 8 crew collection.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-11-2014 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just one final quick remark, simply put, I am not too bothered by the STS-2 launch day cancel on the "simple" cover.

I've purchased many similar signed covers with early astronaut autographs on them as this, however, some of those that do contain postmarks really have no direct connection or mission/program association to the signing astronaut(s) on them.

There were two such collections that I was able to acquire decades ago, one of which the owner had passed away, thus leaving many similar signed covers with no cancels at all on them, while only a few had "minor" event cancels.

Another similar astronaut autograph collection, with blank covers signed, later acquired anniversary event cancels on a variety of the covers--but not necessarily from the designated spaceflight the astronaut had been assigned to.

In my opinion, some of the covers that I have seen were indeed a poor choice of used postal cancellations, but not all, as I have a nice Roger B. Chaffee--signed originally on a blank cover--later postmark in Oct. 1968 from the Cape when Apollo 7 became the first manned Apollo spaceflight. A good cancel choice, for sure, huh?

Granted, the STS-2 launch date from the Cape is unusual. Regardless though of the cover's postal cancel, I think the most important element here is the autograph itself! In my opinion, I think it's an early classic authentic sample of Gen. Anders' signature.

mjanovec
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posted 03-11-2014 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
Someone forged an early style Anders signature to an inexpensive cover.
A quick look through eBay finds that Apollo 8 covers are relatively plentiful and inexpensive... so if a forger really wanted to create a desirable item, they could easily afford to buy several Apollo 8 covers as blank canvases, with the hope that at least one forged signature would turn out nicely. The potential payoff would more-than-compensate for whatever covers are trashed in the process.

I agree with others who say the signature looks good (at least given the available resolution of the scan) and that this is most likely an authentic item. We may never know why there is an Anders signature on this particular cover... but it certainly wouldn't be the first instance where the signature and the cover don't seem to correlate.

chet
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posted 03-11-2014 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Ken that the most important thing to consider (when assessing an autograph) is the autograph itself. However, because Anders' signature can be tough to assess definitively from the characteristics of the signature alone, it becomes all the more important to look at all the clues that may be available. Again, this may very well be an authentic signature...I don't dispute that. I just wish the medium didn't create the problem it does...at least for me.

gliderpilotuk
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posted 03-12-2014 05:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I find it hard to understand how any authenticator can give an opinion on this piece, without provenance or sight of a similar signature with an evidential inscription. We all know that Anders' signature is a difficult one to tie down (and I don't agree with the "big picture" mantra that implies that the context is just as important. That can often just be a cop-out!).

Talking of mantras, I would have thought that this would have failed the auction house acid test (albeit a very low bar) of "unsupportable authenticity", which in no way means that it is necessarily un-original.

Anders is crying out for an Armstrong-style study and out of frustration I started to build my own collection of examples - mostly ones with inscriptions - to provide a more rational basis for judgement. When, and if, I get the time I'd be happy to collate other people's known-good examples....but not just yet!

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-12-2014 08:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
I find it hard to understand how any authenticator can give an opinion on this piece, without provenance or sight of a similar signature with an evidential inscription.

I don't think anyone claimed similar examples didn't exist. I have similar verified authentic examples in my exemplar files.

Bob M
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posted 03-12-2014 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shown here are two covers signed by Anders, with the WAAnders signature on the Apollo 8 cover at the top quite similar to the STS-2 WAAnders cover. Close examination of the two should show a similar style and similar traits. It was acquired in 1988 from pioneer collector Amanda Hoerschgen. It is my opinion that both covers were signed by the same hand, Anders', and are authentic.

The cover below, nicely signed, "William A Anders", was acquired in an auction in 1976 and was canceled for another quite inappropriate space event: Viking B in 1975. As Ken has stated, it was fairly common for collectors of the early days to have astronauts sign blank covers and then have them canceled later and it appears that this cover is a good example.

The "Ed Givens" signed cover shown here is a good example of astronauts signing blank covers, as it was canceled for Apollo 11 about two years after Givens' death. This signed cover was acquired also from Amanda Hoerschgen 1988.

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-12-2014 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Bob for sharing some historical insight. In my view, the entire hobby is indebted to you -- and Ken -- for all the knowledge you have shared over the years.

chet
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posted 03-12-2014 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
I don't agree with the "big picture" mantra that implies that the context is just as important. That can often just be a cop-out!
I don't understand this viewpoint at all. When presented with an ambiguous signature, what else is there to go by BUT context? Would anyone here purchase a good looking Babe Ruth signature on a ball manufactured in 1976? Or a photo with a near perfect Ted Freeman signature on Fuji paper? Granted, the example under discussion here isn't at all that clear cut, but I believe the salient point is a very important one.

Great work by Bob M. (as usual) in digging out a similarly signed cover by Anders to illustrate Ken's earlier points. (And it is another example of context adding evidence when evaluating a difficult example.) But the argument I was making isn't changed by what Ken and Bob have brought to the table. We can all look at the signature alone and agree that it looks similar enough to known authentic examples to pass as an autograph that could very well have been signed by Anders, but in this instance I don't think anyone could argue that the context ENHANCES certainty about the signature. It is still an anomaly, and without downplaying Ken's and Bob's contributions here, all they've shown is that similar anomalies exist. To me it's no different than betting heavily on an underdog just because it can be shown that history is replete with examples of underdogs upsetting the favorites. Yes, you can get lucky, but the odds are still against you.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-12-2014 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just quickly, for Bob, Welcome Back buddy!!! Will phone or email you very soon.

Anyway, just saw the recent postings and it was great seeing Bob's signed covers from Anders/Apollo 8 along with the Givens/Apollo 11.

To help expand more on the topic at hand ....

I just located a bunch of similar covers that perhaps can be scanned here later. Like Bob, many of mine came from Amanda H., but also, from the Gearhardt collection and Dr. E. V. Smith, along with another collection estate that I can't recall the name of at the moment.

I've got similar Viking-B KSC-ONC covers signed by Ted Freeman (a nice full signature with military rank and service branch added), and "Edw G. Givens, Jr.," "C Williams," and "Elliot See."

One of the most unusual "signed" covers for the Viking-B launch, but this one has no KSC-ONC affixed on to it (only a KSC-machine cancel), had been signed by both GT-9 original astronaut crewmen of See and Bassett!

Perhaps a companion cover to Bob's signed Givens/Whitney RSC cover is one of mine for Apollo 11's "First step on the moon," also with a handsome Whitney RSC and Cape posted for July 20, 1969. Mine is signed "Edw G. Givens, Jr." at bottom right.

From the collection of Dr. Smith, here again, many similar-type covers; Mine with early signatures -- all signed as blank envelopes -- by Freeman, See, and Anders (that I have a copy of), just to name a few without checking further.

chet
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posted 03-12-2014 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We all have our own ideas about what we want to collect, and what items meet our personal standards. For me, if it is reasonable for a person "knowledgeable in the field" to harbor a doubt about an item's authenticity, I will usually take a pass on the item.

With all sincerity and due respect to Ken, anecdotal evidence isn't tantamount to provenance. The additional covers cited may provide comfort to Jon, but if the charge against the Anders/STS-2 cover is "possibly inauthentic", the extra examples are suggestive, but hardly exonerating, in my opinion.

fredtrav
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posted 03-12-2014 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredtrav   Click Here to Email fredtrav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chet, the problem with the knowledgeable in the field to harbor a doubt statement is that every signed item could be doubted. If five people says it is good and one had doubts then it would not be worth collecting to you. If you did not see it being signed then there is always some doubt. In this case there are some of the most knowledgeable people in the field saying that it is probably good and Steve will be able to see the cover in person.

You seem to be the only one in the thread with a doubt that would say the cover is possibly not authentic.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-12-2014 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just saw your recent posting, Chet, and while I do agree with you on various issues here, I think what others and myself are trying to express here is/are known cover origins; their makeup, owners, background, provenance, and history are indeed good to know.

We know that early and veteran collectors like Amanda H., Gearhardt, Dr. Smith, Harry Rose, and others were long-time astronaut cover collectors at a time when space collecting wasn't anything that it is today, not even close!

It was a time/era of collecting innocence, if I may say such a thing, as an astronaut autograph forgery was rarely, if hardly ever, considered.

Even to find a dishonest space dealer was not the norm of the 1960/70s, but yes I know, the hobby (and now industry) did have the likes of Chuck Riser and Bill Ronson to deal with back in those early pioneering space collecting days. But that is another story altogether.

I will grant you this, though Chet, that the origin of the signed Anders/STS-2 cover isn't known to us, correct?

Therefore, as you have pointed out, the full picture should by all means be a valuable part of the entire evaluation before making such a decision and possible purchase.

chet
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posted 03-12-2014 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
In this case there are some of the most knowledgeable people in the field saying that it is probably good and Steve will be able to see the cover in person.

You seem to be the only one in the thread with a doubt that would say the cover is possibly not authentic.


On the contrary, Fred, I don't think anyone here has challenged my position that the cover is possibly not authentic. What I do get is that there is much evidence to suggest that the Anders cover may very well be authentic, and I don't dispute that. As I've stated here many times already, it may very well be an authentic Anders signature, but that's not the same as being able to recommend that someone plunk down a few hundred dollars for it, because in my opinion it's authenticity is too far from the "degree of conclusiveness" I'd be comfortable with. There are signed items out there that even without provenance would be a "slam dunk" for most, if not all, collectors - they are that obvious. This Anders cover just isn't in that category.

Ken, thank you for your very kind and thoughtful comments. I agree with what you wrote and am glad we're both working toward the same end, i.e., enhancing the hobby and trying to educate newcomers; you've certainly been at it longer than I and I appreciate your experience and expertise. I agree there were more "innocent" times in space collecting, but things have changed in the hobby just as elsewhere, so it's only prudent to be more careful when there are more wolves around than there used to be.

moonnut
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posted 03-12-2014 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moonnut   Click Here to Email moonnut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's been quite interesting to read this thread and a thank you to all involved. Offers some insight into the hobby and how it has evolved. I have been interested in space since I was young, but have only been collecting for 5 years. I do constantly research autographs and try to train my eye to spot the good and bad, but error at some point, with everyone, is inevitable.

Chet, I see your point about the STS-2 cover. I know that a signature has value, but that value seems to be determined by the medium that it is on.

What would you rather have — Anders' signature on a vintage NASA Apollo 8 Earthrise litho or an STS-2 cover? You can get Donn Eisele signed checks for $30 all day long, but a signed photo will go considerably more.

I know when I purchase a signature, I want the item to be relative to the signer.

chet
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posted 03-12-2014 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonnut:
I know when I purchase a signature, I want the item to be relative to the signer.
Of course it's good to learn from Bob and Ken that signatures on (more or less blank) covers, with cancellations applied later, is not as odd, or rare, as I thought, but it does open the door a bit wider for forgers so one must always be on the lookout.

If I had to choose between a "spotty" signature on an item more closely tied to the signer, and one I had greater confidence in but on something wholly unrelated, I'd go for the one I felt likelier to be authentic, naturally - what's the point in having a "nice" fake?

The key phrasing though is "had to"; nobody "has to" go with either one. A better example will almost always come along, and it's inevitably worth waiting for.

jonspace
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posted 03-12-2014 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jonspace   Click Here to Email jonspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm the original poster. I'm a college student (graduating in May) and relatively new to space collecting. This is my first cover purchase, which is incidental since I am primarily looking for the autograph to complete my Apollo 8 crew. This thread has been an absolute fascinating read and I thank everyone who has been participating. I'm learning a lot! The cover is on its way to me and I will forward it to Steve Zareli along with a few other signatures from my small collection. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out!

gliderpilotuk
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posted 03-14-2014 05:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
Would anyone here purchase a good looking Babe Ruth signature on a ball manufactured in 1976? Or a photo with a near perfect Ted Freeman signature on Fuji paper?
Those are poor examples that you cite. As far as I know Anders is still alive and was very much alive at the time of STS-2! It's more likely that a forger will forge a signature on a contemporary piece than on some random, unassociated document. (And I don't think this is a forgery.)

Context has to be a real fallback after checking (a) provenance, and (b) similar exemplars (preferably with inscriptions), as Steve mentioned and as Bob has graciously evidenced.

chet
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posted 03-14-2014 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The examples I gave were indeed extreme, but only to drive home the point that context counts, especially when it's hard to determine authenticity just by appearance of the signature alone.

I'd have reservations about the Anders even if it appeared on an index card with good looking Lovell and Borman signatures (though I understand others have little such concerns with the signature itself.) It may very well be authentic. My only point was that sizing up even a signature that appears authentic, should take the material signed into account. Perhaps our disagreement (if any) is only with regard to the degree.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-14-2014 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, Of course though, common sense will tell us all that when examining any signature piece, rather it looks good or not, what the item is signed is important as well, it simply goes without saying.

For instance, once when I was evaluating an early deceased astronaut autograph, it had been signed on a NASA glossy photograph that wasn't available until more than a year AFTER the "signing astronaut" had lost his life!

There was another situation that involved a Life magazine front-cover page. It had been "signed" by the Apollo 1 crew over their pictures on the magazine's front cover.

At a first glance, while the signatures of Grissom, White, Chaffee didn't appear authentic to me in the first place — in fact — it was a Life magazine issue honoring the lost AS-204 crewmembers. The first manned Apollo crew had lost their lives in the Spacecraft 012 fire only a few days EARLIER or BEFORE the tribute magazine issue has been released!

astrobock
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posted 03-14-2014 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astrobock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wanted to welcome jonspace to the wonderful world of space cover collecting! A fascinating hobby really! We need more young people to catch the interest. As you've discovered, you'll find a lot of help here on collectSPACE. There’s also the ATA Space Topic Study Unit which has been around since 1958 specializing in space stamps and cover collecting. Look them up on the web. By the way, I like your Anders signed cover.

Steve Zarelli
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posted 03-15-2014 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have considered an Anders signature study myself, however I have concerns.

I have many verified Anders exemplars -- some of which are the "variant" signature styles including very rushed in-person examples.

My concern is this with a study: rather than be used to rule out bad items, the variants and messy ones could be used to excuse suspect examples.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, in my opinion, Anders authentication must go beyond "shape" and focus on speed and application.

Even flag presentations and other items signed for dignitaries show he wasn't typically careful about applying a "nice" signature. Items signed for other astronauts are mostly a mess. Quickly applied, streaky signatures.

Yet, a carefully signed glossy in the area of best contrast with zero provenance? Even if the SHAPE of the signature is "perfect," this is an item that should be approached with caution.

One thing is certain: Anders is a challenge and it always helps to have more "data" to analyze. Items signed with the singular "Anders" (And----) are tough. W.A. Anders examples like the one that started this thread, at the least, have a decent amount of "data" to analyze.

jonspace
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Posts: 79
From: VA/MD USA
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 04-09-2014 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jonspace   Click Here to Email jonspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you astrobock for the welcome!

I just received my Anders autographed cover back from Steve Zarelli along with its new accompanying letter of authentication.

I'm pretty excited to now have autographs of the entire Apollo 8 crew (Lovell Lost Moon book plate and Borman index card).

Thank you all for your input and healthy discussion.

jonspace
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Posts: 79
From: VA/MD USA
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 09-12-2014 09:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jonspace   Click Here to Email jonspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a little update on this.

I took the opportunity to complete the crew of Apollo 8 on this cover with the recent Novaspace signing event! Very happy with the result. Rob/Kim and the team over there are awesome!

MrSpace86
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Posts: 1438
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-16-2014 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrSpace86   Click Here to Email MrSpace86     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That looks really nice! Congrats

chet
Member

Posts: 1412
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-16-2014 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kudos, Jon!

billewald
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Posts: 16
From: Stafford, VA, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 09-18-2014 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for billewald   Click Here to Email billewald     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am a little late to this conversation. but I am also evaluating a Bill Anders autograph. However, mine is signed "Bill Anders."

The "Bill" is legible and the "Anders" is very close to the one you have posted here. This autograph is on a vintage "A KODAK PAPER" original photo with red serial number S-68-56532. No real question here.

But I enjoyed reading the responses, you all have given me an idea of the rarity of this photo/autograph. Thanks!

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