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  231120250542: Armstrong-signed Apollo 11 litho

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Author Topic:   231120250542: Armstrong-signed Apollo 11 litho
vidoz
Member

Posts: 54
From: Rome, Italy
Registered: Aug 2011

posted 01-02-2014 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vidoz   Click Here to Email vidoz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I noticed this auction from seller gabi-2311.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on the signature as it doesn't look good to me.

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

moonnut
Member

Posts: 74
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Apr 2013

posted 01-02-2014 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moonnut   Click Here to Email moonnut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks too iffy to me. If you have doubt then don't bid. I personally wouldn't.

Tykeanaut
Member

Posts: 1815
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 01-02-2014 10:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tykeanaut   Click Here to Email Tykeanaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, someone has paid $1,777 for it. I wouldn't have.

JasonIUP
Member

Posts: 180
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-02-2014 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonIUP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's an early '70s version.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 423
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 01-02-2014 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What is? The litho?

Michael1976
Member

Posts: 88
From: Chandler, AZ 85249
Registered: Nov 2011

posted 01-02-2014 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael1976   Click Here to Email Michael1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had an eBay conversation with this seller. Told him the signature was horrible. He said the signature was vetted by Florian as is all his stuff is... see below..
This was in a big collection of a great seller and normally all my signatures are proofed from Florian Noller, Spaceflori the president of the german space philately and a friend of my father.

You have also the 100% guarantee if you are not satisfied with anything you can send it back.

I asked him if Florian had thought this was real and he said yes.

Mike Dixon
Member

Posts: 801
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 01-02-2014 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Dixon   Click Here to Email Mike Dixon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Her (and yes, the seller is a lady) auctions are, for the most part, all legit. There have been some recent glaring exceptions, and this looks like another one.

For the dollars involved, you really need to make sure you do your homework and that applies to both seller and buyer.

JasonIUP
Member

Posts: 180
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-03-2014 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonIUP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It looks very similar to 70's versions that RR has had. I have a good reference library and I did my homework before bidding.

JasonB
Member

Posts: 706
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-03-2014 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a policy that has served me very well when in doubt. If Steve Zarelli says its okay your good. If not run away!

I saw this a few days back and it looked very off to me.

chet
Member

Posts: 1333
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-03-2014 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I also emailed the seller to ask about the advertised "20 of 25" aspect of this litho, but received a reply that ignored my question and simply insisted the autograph was authentic; can't say I have any confidence in that assertion.

stsmithva
Member

Posts: 1452
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 01-03-2014 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stsmithva   Click Here to Email stsmithva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
the advertised "20 of 25" aspect of this litho

The description did include "20/25", but I believe the German seller was describing it as 20 cm by 25 cm, which is the usual conversion for 8 inch by 10 inch photos.

Michael1976
Member

Posts: 88
From: Chandler, AZ 85249
Registered: Nov 2011

posted 01-03-2014 08:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael1976   Click Here to Email Michael1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RR has this one for sale in their current auction.

vidoz
Member

Posts: 54
From: Rome, Italy
Registered: Aug 2011

posted 01-03-2014 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vidoz   Click Here to Email vidoz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stsmithva:
...but I believe the German seller was describing it as 20 cm by 25 cm...

Yes, I confirm that 20/25 stands for 20 cm by 25 cm.

Well, I would be pretty surprised if Florian had the time to review all of the signed items auctioned by gabi-2311, since she put tons of items up for auction every week, many of them even bearing multiple signatures, but who knows...

Anyhow, I wanted to thank all of you for your valuable opinions and expertise, which confirmed my bad gut feeling about the signature at issue and helped me to dodge a bullet!

moonnut
Member

Posts: 74
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Apr 2013

posted 01-03-2014 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moonnut   Click Here to Email moonnut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hope whoever bought it uses the 100% guarantee if you are not satisfied with anything you can send it back. Whenever i see someone selling that amount of stuff, that seems never ending, it makes me hesitant. Double up on the research in that case.

fredtrav
Member

Posts: 1069
From: Birmingham AL USA
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 01-03-2014 11:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredtrav   Click Here to Email fredtrav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would check with Florian to see if gabi is using his reputation with him not knowing about it. I had once asked about this seller and he told me that she had some good items and some questionable ones. It was a year or two ago when I last asked him however so he could be working with her now. Check with him though.

If you have not paid for the item, do not and tell her you would be using the return option as you have since found that the autograph is "iffy" and ask her to cancel the sale. That is assuming that is what you want to do.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3627
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 01-04-2014 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Instead of speculating on what he may or may not have reviewed, the simple solution is for Florian to post here and tell us if he approved this item.

JasonIUP
Member

Posts: 180
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-04-2014 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonIUP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wonder what everyone's opinions are of the Armstrong. I vote "yes". Who wants to opine?

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3627
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 01-04-2014 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are you the buyer, Jason? If so, I strongly suggest returning this for a refund. Sorry.

(In other words, I vote "no.")

Greggy_D
Member

Posts: 719
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 01-04-2014 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greggy_D   Click Here to Email Greggy_D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The "A" in Armstrong looks really tentative to me. Almost as if the signer was trying to correct the shape mid-stroke. For that amount of money it's not perfect enough and I would pass. Another "no" vote here.

JasonB
Member

Posts: 706
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-04-2014 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The A looks way off. It's hard to see the rest but that would be enough for me to pass on it.

JasonIUP
Member

Posts: 180
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-04-2014 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonIUP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, I didn't buy it. But, if this one isn't right, what about these? 1 | 2 | 3

Michael1976
Member

Posts: 88
From: Chandler, AZ 85249
Registered: Nov 2011

posted 01-04-2014 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael1976   Click Here to Email Michael1976     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my opinion, the second and third are really bad and were forged by the same person. The first one looks like a real Collins, a bad Armstrong (notice the start stop start on the A, terrible baseline on the Eil), and I'm undecided on the Aldrin.

This is just my opinion...

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 29230
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 01-04-2014 05:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JasonIUP:
...what about these?
The first is lot 447 from RR Auction's July 2009 auction.

The second is lot 420 from RR Auction's August 2009 auction.

The third is lot 459 from RR Auction's September 2011 auction.

JasonIUP
Member

Posts: 180
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-04-2014 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonIUP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or they're 70's versions, like the eBay one.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 29230
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 01-04-2014 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are significant differences between the eBay example and the three you have singled out. If anything the comparison offers more reason to doubt the eBay example.

Steve Zarelli
Member

Posts: 423
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 01-04-2014 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Zarelli   Click Here to Email Steve Zarelli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I tend to avoid unsolicited opinions, but because the buyer asked, I have serious misgivings about the authenticity of this item.
  • Size, placement and angle are all atypical
  • Why does it look like it was signed recently with a blue Sharpie and not the weak water-based Flair pen he usually used?
  • Spacing between first and last name atypical and the horizontal plane between the first and last is off as well.
  • Unusual left slant to "eil"
  • Hesitant beginning to top stroke of A
  • At least four other subtle traits I prefer to not publicly reveal are inconsistent with authentic
The signature appears to bear the rudimentary "essence" of Armstrong, but spatially it looks like it is coming apart at the seams.

Could it be a completely freaky, yet authentic? I could not completely rule it out. But, I'd be surprised if that was the case.

moonnut
Member

Posts: 74
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Apr 2013

posted 01-04-2014 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moonnut   Click Here to Email moonnut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought the same as Robert's last post when I looked at the other examples Jason gave. Really, all in all, seems the consensus is a NO.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3627
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 01-04-2014 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
There are significant differences between the eBay example and the three you have singled out. If anything the comparison offers more reason to doubt the eBay example.

I totally agree. The three RR examples are authentic and show natural variations in the signatures.

The eBay example is simply too far off the mark, in my opinion, to be authentic. The forger may have indeed been trying to replicate a 70s style signature, but they fell short of producing a convincing example.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3627
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 01-07-2014 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would be good to determine if Florian did review this item (as the seller claims) or whether the seller is wrong (or worse, lying) about it being authenticated.

If Florian did give his okay to this signature, I would be curious to hear his reasons why he thinks the signature is authentic.

Likewise, if the seller is wrong about Florian okaying this item, that is something that potential buyers should know... plus, I'm also guessing that Florian would be interested in setting the record straight.

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