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Author
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Topic: The market's reaction to Neil Armstrong's death
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p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 08-27-2012 02:27 PM
   
Anyone else almost having a stroke at seeing all the "memorial" shirts on eBay now? These were ready to sell the day he passed away. Even more aggravating is at least two have the common photo of Aldrin that Armstrong took! I know it's tough to have a shot of Armstrong actually on the moon due to how few that were taken and none of them good quality. Even more sad is that there are dozens of shirts just like this on eBay right now with various designs. Ghouls is the only word I can think of for these people. I'm not a religious person but if there's a 'hot place,' after all, there should be a special place for people who'd list stuff like that. I'd even argue that connections to the family shouldn't matter much anyway even if any of these shirt people are doing that. Armstrong was of course such a private man and one of things I admired about him was him not wanting to make a commodity out of himself... |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 08-27-2012 02:53 PM
I find myself wondering if any of Armstrong's collection will make it onto the market. As much as I would treasure something that was once owned by him, I hope that everything of his ends up in museums. Can you imagine what the prices would be like for a Neil Armstrong-owned, lunar surface-flown item? The mind boggles. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-27-2012 03:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
I'm not sure, but eBay item 251140375474 might be a Peachstate forgery.
Yes, it is one of the notorious so-called Peachstate Armstrongs of which over 100 were said to be distributed starting in the late 1990's. It's a classic Peachstate example but is very unusual in that it doesn't impact the flag patch.Instead of selling this and sticking another collector with it, it should be sent back to the original supplier for a refund — which is said to be granted, but only for the original purchase price, which was only about $300. With Armstrong autographs selling for thousands of dollars now, probably most who bought these things, and realize what they are, will instead try to dump them off on other unsuspecting collectors. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-27-2012 03:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ilbasso:
I find myself wondering if any of Armstrong's collection will make it onto the market.
Armstrong told his biographer James Hansen that he did not keep anything that flew with him to space or the moon, nor did he fly anything for his family (other than the gold olive branches the crew flew for their wives and mothers). With regards to a personal collection, Armstrong donated his archives to Purdue in 2008. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3120
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 08-27-2012 03:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by stsmithva:
One guy had commemorative RIP t-shirts for sale in less than an hour. It's a little creepy to picture him with a 99%-complete RIP Neil Armstrong pattern, ready to lunge at the computer to fill in the year of death and get it on eBay.
We need to bear in mind that a certain percentage of the human race are unspeakable scumbags with no obvious redeeming features. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 08-27-2012 03:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Armstrong told his biographer James Hansen that he did not keep anything that flew with him to space or the moon, nor did he fly anything for his family...
Perhaps there may be an exception to what Armstrong had said before in not keeping "anything" that had flew in space with him.How about the flown Robbins medals from Apollo 11 and Flitelines from GT-8? Did the Armstrong family order no medals whatsoever? We know that his lunar crewmates did in fact carry with them the same medallions. Did the First Man not follow the tradition that most all prior Gemini and Apollo astronauts took regarding the flown medallions? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-27-2012 04:00 PM
The Apollo 11 crew evenly divided the silver Robbins medals they flew, and each received a gold medal as well. But that doesn't mean that Armstrong retained any of them for himself — he could have easily given out or donated his 151 medals, including his single gold one.Janet, his former wife, told Hansen that "I had assumed he had taken things to give to the boys later, but I don't believe he has ever given them anything." |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 08-27-2012 06:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
I'm not sure, but eBay item 251140375474 might be a Peachstate forgery.
POOF! quote:
Originally posted by YankeeClipper:
Here's a particularly bad example... eBay Item 130755939704
POOF!  |
rgarner
Member Posts: 1193
From: Shepperton, United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 08-28-2012 02:57 PM
I honestly don't understand why prices are soaring for Armstrong's autograph right now. He stopped signing in 1994 — I'm in the market and have been for about two months, personally I refuse to pay anything but pre-24th prices as Robert has stated. It is mind boggling why people think they can charge what they want — I find it distasteful to say the least. Nobody should be profiteering from such an sad occasion.I have also seen those t-shirts on eBay - I was nearly sick. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 08-28-2012 03:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rgarner:
I honestly don't understand why prices are soaring for Armstrong's autograph right now. He stopped signing in 1994
It's normal and should have been expected. People knew this several generations ago when art collectors knew to invest in art for the day when the artist passed on so they could then sell at a higher rate. Nothing new here at all. As for him not signing since the 90s, that means nothing in regard for his passing. I have bene researching and collecting works of WW2 cartoonist Bill Mauldin for several years and he, too quit signing in the 90s (after dropping a snow plow on his hands and couldn't hold a pen well afterward). That didn't stop items of his going through the roof, either. And this was hardly a household name for anyone younger than the WW2 generation. quote:
Originally posted by rgarner:
I refuse to pay anything but pre-24th prices as Robert has stated. It is mind boggling why people think they can charge what they want — I find it distasteful to say the least.
They think they can charge that much because THEY CAN charge that much, plain and simple. The market will recoil a degree once the furor has died down a little, but Armstrong items have gone to the next rung in the value ladder and will remain there permanently. I wish you luck holding out for pre-passing prices. Someday you might be able to find what you're looking for at those rates, but I wouldn't bet on it. Robert's comments reflect the admirable high ground, but I don't think the market will follow. |
rgarner
Member Posts: 1193
From: Shepperton, United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 08-28-2012 03:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
Robert's comments reflect the admirable high ground, but I don't think the market will follow.
If there was ever a reason to lose faith in humanity, that was it. |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 08-28-2012 07:01 PM
Regarding the comments about the "Neil Armstrong Collection"...Has information ever come out regarding any insurance covers he may have kept? Personally, I'd love to see a supply of signed WSS photos come out.  Perhaps then I could afford one. I've been looking for one for several years and have so far come up dry, simply due to the expense. |
benfairfax
Member Posts: 199
From: NSW Australia
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 08-28-2012 09:43 PM
Armstrong prices are soaring because he was probably the most famous person on the planet. Who else would you put in that category of fame? Only Michael Jackson comes to my mind. The price that non-collectors will pay is crazy to us, because we are collectors. To the average Joe, they will pay. Think of the prices seen in the well advertised annual RR auction. Last one a set of Apollo 11 individual lithos went for $12k+. What I find amazing is the prices of autopens, 1 I just found on ebay is $100 and states autopen! |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 08-28-2012 10:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rgarner:
If there was ever a reason to lose faith in humanity, that was it.
Do you really think I'm wrong? Hey, I can't justify spending thousands of dollars for anyone's autograph, so I don't have a horse in this race either way.But history has proven time and time again that once someone dies, the value of anything associated with them — if they ever had value to start with — goes up dramatically. It's a simple historical reality. |
rgarner
Member Posts: 1193
From: Shepperton, United Kingdom
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 08-29-2012 03:20 AM
On the contrary, I know you're right - it just makes me sad. The comment wasn't aimed at you, it was in respect to the hounds on eBay. |
leslie
Member Posts: 231
From: Surrey, England
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-29-2012 06:21 AM
Why the hyperbole? We knew this WOULD happen. The surprising fact is the inability of some to understand that a genuine Armstrong autograph is no more valuable than the day before he died. He stopped signing circa 1994 so the inventory is going to be no less. Those poor suckers out on eBay need to sit back and calculate before bloodying themselves on this feeding frenzy. The whole scenario just endorses Armstrong's attitude towards this crap. I am almost ashamed to say I possess his autograph! |
DSeuss5490
Member Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 08-29-2012 08:07 AM
If you look closely on eBay, the very high priced items have few or no takers. For many reasons I don't think the average serious buyer is going to drop thousands in an eBay auction, now or even before 8/25.This past weekend we were in Lebanon, OH playing soccer when the news broke which I received via a text message from my son. I told a few people nearby and word quickly spread around the park. In fact, we were at soccer fields about two miles from the Neil Armstrong residence. On Sunday morning we stopped at a luncheonette and noticed several candid photos of Neil Armstrong on the wall. We were told that he was a regular there and the discussion eventually lead to the comment that he had not signed an autograph for anyone at the restaurant in years. In fact, most of the time he went unnoticed to most patrons. A couple of the workers there had already gone online to see if they could acquire a signed souvenir of the long-time patron, not realizing how expensive one would be they did not, and could not, buy one. Perhaps there are enough wealthy individuals who can afford to drop 5K, but the average fan-admirer-collector was priced out years ago, which is most unfortunate. Oddly enough, I have seen some great authentic Neil Armstrong bargains on eBay the last few days, but those never-ending listings of $12,000 items that are now priced at $20,000 are still going unsold. I would be the first to admit that there is a huge demand for his signature, but at what price? As more and more items come to the market it will be interesting to watch. In my opinion, the hoarders, speculators and fancy-framed dealers with a nice COA (no disrespect implied) have driven the prices up to where they are, not the average collector. With most of those people out the equation, eventually we may see a settling of Neil Armstrong prices, not because of decreasing demand, but because of the huge volume of material coming to market that will go unsold at current (or higher) prices. I'm not looking to get into an argument with anyone on this. This is just my opinion. |
benfairfax
Member Posts: 199
From: NSW Australia
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 08-29-2012 09:19 AM
$203 for an Autopen... OMG. I'm speechless. |
Dirk
Member Posts: 933
From: Belgium
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 08-29-2012 09:57 AM
Maybe some sellers are bidding with fake bidders...? |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 08-29-2012 12:31 PM
Goes back to a question we were pondering on this forum a couple of years ago: How many of the hundreds of thousands of autographs that Neil Armstrong did sign over the course of about 30 years are still remaining in people's possession? I've seen estimates ranging from 500,000 to 900,000 items that he signed. How many thousands have been thrown out, lost, destroyed? Will his passing inspire people to start looking through the old boxes in their parents' attic? |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 08-29-2012 01:04 PM
I have heard figures of 100,000's of autographs being signed and just can not buy it. For there to be 100,000 autographs that he signed he would have had to sign almost 10 per day 365 days a year for 30 years. I know he was a prolific signed but that is a lot to sign. So if there were 500,000 then about 46 per day every day of his life for 30 straight years. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 08-29-2012 01:45 PM
His secretary was one of the sources for those estimates. I believe he was signing several hundred a day for a long stretch in the early 1970's.It's interesting that a lot of news stories about him are saying that he followed Lindbergh's advice and "never signed autographs." I wonder how many people hear that and then think that everything on the market must be a fake. |
RLK88
Member Posts: 97
From: Long Island, NY
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 08-29-2012 02:22 PM
Yes - I saw Miles O'Brien on television the other night saying that "he knew Neil for many years and that he never signed anything for anyone - therefore anything signed by him is quite rare." It goes to show you that people who you can respect in other areas don't really know anything about this hobby. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 08-29-2012 02:38 PM
Of course Mr. O'Brien might be right as far as he knows. He came into prominence as a space journalist around 2000. If he did not know Neil prior to 1994 then the only thing he knows about Neil signing autographs is that he would not sign any.As far as Mr. Armstrong signing several hundred a day for many days, it could be. It might also be an exaggeration. Think of how long it would take to sign 300 autographs especially since most had some personalization like Stanley Dweebish thanks for your support best wishes Neil Armstrong over and over and over for 6 hours five days a week. His signature after a few hours would look like some of the rushed Shepards at book signings or worse. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-29-2012 03:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
Think of how long it would take to sign 300 autographs especially since most had some personalization...
I watched on more than one occasion, from start to finish, astronauts sign over 1,000 autographs in a little over two hours. Their signatures looked roughly the same at the end as it did at the start. They were mostly unpersonalized, but at that rate, I would expect 300 personalized to take roughly the same time. |
nas9-1100
New Member Posts:
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posted 08-29-2012 03:38 PM
First, thank you to the members of collectSPACE and Robert... after a decade of reading almost every post, I always have the greatest respect for the truth. The truth will set you free. Mr. Armstrong was the real deal, period. As Dave Scott (not the astronaut) knows of me, Neil was the neighbor down the street and will be missed for that too... |
leslie
Member Posts: 231
From: Surrey, England
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-30-2012 06:42 AM
Let's be frank, unless there is a photo of an astronaut signing, verification of authenticity is an inexact science. Regardless of how little or how many were signed by Armstrong. I was in a hotel bar in San Antonio and a guy wrote Armstrong's signature on a piece of paper. The next day it was shown to an "expert" (not Zarelli I hasten to add) of repute who said it looked good to him! Who knows? |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 08-30-2012 10:03 PM
Good point. I've been asked to verify signatures and sketches attributed to a cartoonist whose work I'm very familiar with. Most are very obvious fakes but many times I have to shrug and say I can't tell for sure either way.This is why I will never put money into signatures, it's all an opinion either way except when you know YOU got the signature yourself. I have a lot of signed stuff from astronauts but mostly WW2 pilots, almost all of which I got myself. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-31-2012 07:43 PM
One things for certain... the proliferation of forgeries as a mere result of the perception that Armstrong's signature commands an increased premium (from the forgers perspective a low risk/high payoff activity) is going to increase the noise floor and further erode confidence in the authenticity of those signatures which are actually genuine. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-01-2012 03:12 AM
I think it's important to remember that the people that buy the Armstrong forgeries every week on eBay and elsewhere believe they're buying the real thing and that they've got themselves a bargain.Now many of those people will be reacting to the news of his death by putting their bargain autograph up for sale on eBay to cash-in on their 'investment'. Today's sellers of fake autographs are not always forgers themselves. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 09-01-2012 08:26 AM
I agree with this. I lost track of how many Armstrongs I reviewed in the last week, and the news was often not good. Many of them were from people who bought the item many years ago and were truly stunned their item was not authentic.And it's amazing how many people have fathers who were NASA executives/workers who received items directly from the astronauts... Yet the items appear to be totally unconvincing forgeries with bold, fresh signatures that look like they were signed yesterday. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 09-01-2012 01:19 PM
Another phenomenon I'm seeing on eBay is the exponential jump in the number of listings using "Neil Armstrong" in their titles/keywords that have absolutely nothing to do with Armstrong. I did get a chuckle at item 160874899472, Space Autograph News from 1995. It noted that in 1989, RR Auction was willing to pay $10 for an Armstrong autograph. By 1994 that had jumped to $50. It was up to $250 by 1995. |
Mark B
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Registered:
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posted 09-05-2012 09:59 PM
I believe this is a record asking price for this type of "signed" item? Autographed 8X10 Reprint PhotoAny better prices out there? The hook is baited, the seller is obviously just waiting and hoping he will find a gullible person to buy this gem... |
Dougin SoCA
Member Posts: 111
From: Aliso Viejo, Ca, USA
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 09-05-2012 10:13 PM
Maybe it's a language thing. Some of those Aussie's speak pretty odd...  |
Gonzo
Member Posts: 596
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 09-06-2012 05:36 AM
Hey, at least he admits he doesn't have a COA. But then again, he does have a letter stating Neil Armstrong was selected to be an astronaut and was the commander of Apollo 11 and that he's "had a lot of space memorabilia collectors look at it (the signature)", all of which (surprisingly) believe it's real! The letter alone probably doubles the value... |
Tykeanaut
Member Posts: 2212
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 09-06-2012 11:27 AM
Am I missing something here? A reprint, a copy of the orginal?  |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-06-2012 12:17 PM
Taken literally, it's a signed reprint of a photo. Which it's not: it's a reprinted signed photo (actually, a litho, so really it's a "reprinted photo of a signed litho.") |
Mark B
New Member Posts:
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posted 09-06-2012 05:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dougin SoCA:
Maybe it's a language thing. Some of those Aussie's speak pretty odd...
onyamateanavagoodweekend |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 09-06-2012 09:16 PM
Well for what it's worth, we've been busy EVERY DAY since Neil passed. Not just him or Apollo 11, but ANYTHING. Gotta go. More later. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-07-2012 12:10 PM
Saw a listing which said "His autograph appears it may be autopen, I am not 100% sure, it may be ink, but to be on the safe side, I am listing it as autopen."Are you covered if you buy it as an autopen but it turns out to be a forgery instead? |
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