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Author
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Topic: 280727004207: Soyuz TM-21 signed cover
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yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-24-2011 01:08 AM
   
I vaguely recall some issue with the autographs on this cover - anyone else know of an issue or is my memory faulty? Thanks. |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 08-24-2011 02:58 PM
Yes, these signatures are widely considered fake! |
yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-24-2011 05:08 PM
Thanks Florian. Any idea where they originated from? Weren't there others done around the same time? |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 08-24-2011 06:49 PM
The faked Soyuz TM-21 covers came from Sergey Yesin, Moscow to Germany and probably other countries. |
yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-24-2011 08:14 PM
Thanks Walter... I think there was a "pink" colored cover at the same time also with suspect autographs - for a different mission? |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 08-29-2011 04:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by yeknom-ecaps:
I think there was a "pink" colored cover at the same time also with suspect autographs - for a different mission?
Similar questionable signed covers were produced by Yesin for the launch of the same three cosmonauts on Soyuz TM21, with a Baikonur cancel. |
astrobock
Member Posts: 138
From: WV, USA
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 08-29-2011 11:40 AM
Is the TM-21 signed cover shown on eBay auction lot 280727004207 considered a fake? Are there authentic examples anyone can share? Thanks. |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 08-30-2011 03:00 PM
Be precise in your choice of words: I don't think the cover is fake. The paper is real, the stamp is real, the postmarker is real. So no problem for a stamp collector.Norm Thagard had stopped signing covers quite some time before his stint on MIR. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-30-2011 04:47 PM
 Actually, Norm Thagard did sign some covers at the time of Soyuz TM-21/STS-71 in 1995, and did sign covers for his 1st four flights (STS-7, 51B, 30 and 42), but sometime prior to STS-71 and his launch on Soyuz TM-21, he got cover-shy. But he didn't sign the cover at the top (copied from eBay years ago), as all the signatures are considered forgeries and is one of the many fakes seen for Soyuz TM-21. But the bottom cover is one of a number flown to Mir on Soyuz TM-21 and signed onboard Mir by the -71 and TM-21 crews and returned to earth on STS-71 on Atlantis. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 08-31-2011 09:15 AM
Why on Earth would someone be shy about signing covers? I understand some Apollo astronauts have a still rather ridiculous stance after Apollo 15, but I cant think of any reasonable reason why a shuttle astronaut would not want to sign them. If anything they tend to be worth less than most any other standard autographed items. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-31-2011 10:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonB:
If anything they tend to be worth less than most any other standard autographed items.
Agreed. It basically doesn't make sense, especially after all these years, and as you say, signed covers are less valuable and less popular than other astronaut signed material. But the trend continues, with Sally Ride, Thagard, and now it appears that new Group 20 NASA Astronaut, Michael Hopkins is not signing covers. Also Shannon Walker is reluctant to sign covers and in the past, also Lisa Nowak. It's just one of those unexplained mysteries in our hobby. But the large majority of shuttle astronauts have no problem signing covers and may even prefer signing them, realizing that they do have less collector value. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-31-2011 11:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Bob M:
It's just one of those unexplained mysteries in our hobby.
I think the explanation becomes somewhat clear when you review one of the few areas where collectibles are regulated by the government.The Code of Federal Regulations includes the following with regards to astronauts' personal preference kits: Items such as philatelic materials and coins that, by their nature, lend themselves to exploitation by the recipients... will not be approved for flight. A photo may be more valuable on the eBay-enabled market today, but a photo can just as easily end up tacked to a school bulletin board. Covers, and other philatelic items, are by their nature only collectibles. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 08-31-2011 12:48 PM
Yes but that only applies to the astronauts taking covers with them on a flight so that THEY don't sell them and create another Apollo 15 moment. It has nothing to do with them signing them years after they're done flying. Their refusal to sign them still makes no sense to me at all (and if anyone can give me a reason that makes sense I'd love to hear it).Also one could make the argument that everything they sign is "only a collectible". |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 08-31-2011 04:30 PM
Here is a good better scan (click on image to enlarge) of a faked Soyuz TM-21 cover. All 6 signatures of Soyuz TM-21 crew and back-up crew are faked. The postmark from Kosmodrom Baikonur is a fake, too. The same applies to the other Baikonur cancellations. Back in 1995 collecting of cosmonauts' and astronauts' signatures was very popular in Germany and other European countries. Thus a large number of these covers could be sold. As far as I remember there were different colours of envelope. I never saw one of those covers with genuine signatures. The same source also produced "flown" covers with the same faked signatures and Baikonur postmarks and additional faked on-board cancellations. |
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