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Author
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Topic: Apollo 11 Signed Photo: Autopen or Authentic
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bgjj04
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posted 01-04-2010 12:51 PM
   
My father received this when he was 14 from our area's then-sitting Congressman, Clarence Miller. Mr. Miller was a family friend, and throughout the years would send my father various artifacts, brochures, etc relating to the space program, including this signed picture of the Apollo 11 crew.Until recently researching these types of items, and learning that autopens were used quite frequently, I had always assumed it to be authentic. I'm hoping the experts here can give an opinion as to whether this is an autopen or is authentic. Thanks in advance!
-Jonathan |
johnraiders
Member Posts: 78
From: Cobham, UK
Registered: Sep 2009
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posted 01-04-2010 01:30 PM
I'm a rookie in such matters, but I think autopen because of all the blobs. Hopefully I'm wrong though!John
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SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 01-04-2010 02:04 PM
All are definite autopens. The Armstrong is a Pattern 4, Aldrin is Pattern 1 and the Collins is Pattern 3, all from Chris Spain's autopen guide.Steve |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 01-04-2010 08:40 PM
Concur -- these are autopens. Still a nice collectible item, though.------------------
John Capobianco
Camden DE |
bgjj04
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posted 01-06-2010 09:54 PM
Thanks everyone. I was starting to lean that way, but since I had no experience in such things I thought I'd better check it out. |
StarDome
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posted 01-07-2010 11:56 AM
Out of interest, how much do these autopen Apollo 11 crew litho's sell for? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-07-2010 02:30 PM
Between zero and maybe five dollars. |
StarDome
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posted 01-07-2010 02:34 PM
Gotta be worth more than that?Jerome at apollomisssionphotos.com sells them from £7.95 to £10.95 and I am sure one sold on eBay recently for £40 there abouts. I guess it depends where they are offered for sale as to what price they realise. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-08-2010 01:58 AM
If one sold for £40 it's because the buyer didn't understand that they were machine-generated signatures.I'm not saying they're worthless, just that there is really very little demand for Autopenned crew pictures. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-08-2010 12:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
I'm not saying they're worthless, just that there is really very little demand for Autopenned crew pictures.
Indeed...while some people do collect autopen signatures, I would personally prefer a crew photo with no signatures over one with autopen signatures. |
Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 01-09-2010 12:28 AM
Chris / (Mark)Understand and appreciate the opinions (and to a large extent they hold true and I know we're discussing Apollo here) but I wouldn't underestimate the market for autopens. Collecting a full set of crew autopens from Mercury thru to STS 129 is (for varying reasons) just not possible. The same can't be said for "clean" versions. Throw in different autopen patterns for the same crews and it becomes an even harder task. Mike |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-09-2010 06:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
If one sold for £40 it's because the buyer didn't understand that they were machine-generated signatures.
Disagree - Apollo 11 autopens have been sold multiple times up to $80-$90 (and more I believe) on eBay, I have sold several of these explicitly marked as such for $79 on covers in my shop. When asked customers said "yes, I know what they are".They can't be obtained or produced anymore and there is a not to be underestimated amount of collectors collecting them these days. So as much as a real autograph collector dislike them they (not only Apollo 11) became collectibles themselves since they were kind of officially released by NASA. Florian |
freshspot
unregistered
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posted 01-10-2010 03:18 AM
I'm with Florian here. I do not collect autographed photos. I do have autographs that are on flown items and because I am an author myself, I really like autographed astronaut biographies. But I don't do photos. However I wanted to compile a complete collection of Apollo autopen crew photos because they are interesting and low price. At the time I was looking, Apollo 11 autopen complete crew was $50 to $100. Of course if you wanted to spend hours on eBay comparing printed signatures vs. autopens (seems that many people do not know the difference), you could probably find one for less, but my time is more valuable than that. The other complete crew autopens are very low price, so a complete Apollo set can be had for under $200. In my mind, what I am collecting is Apollo history. Autopen sigs are a very important part of the history of manned spaceflight and the complete set is much more valuable to me in terms of interest than the low price that I paid. Dave Scott (not the astronaut)
www.apolloartifacts.com |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-10-2010 01:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by freshspot:
Autopen sigs are a very important part of the history of manned spaceflight
Autopen signatures may be an important facet to collecting astronaut autographs, but I don't see it being a "very important" part of manned spaceflight history in general. In my opinion, it's a footnote at best. |
StarDome
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posted 01-10-2010 09:47 PM
Great input guys, and thanks, I asked as I have several Apollo 11 crew lithos with the autopens I may consider selling at some point too.All the very best and thanks for your help here. |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-11-2010 11:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Autopen signatures may be an important facet to collecting astronaut autographs, but I don't see it being a "very important" part of manned spaceflight history in general. In my opinion, it's a footnote at best.
Disagree here, too. While someone can certainly discuss the relevance of autopens to manned spaceflight history the pure existence of them basically shows the great interest of the general public in the astronauts and their flights. Wouldn't there be any interest, there wouldn't be an autopen machine at Houston and the astronauts would have all signed authentically. Autopens in general also show the strong difference in public relation work between the US and the Soviet Union in those old days: In Russia it would have been offensive if cosmonauts used an autopen as according to their ideology everybody in the whole Soviet Union should have the same opportunity getting an authentic autograph of their heroes (whether this was actually true is another thing, of course). So the autopen in fact (if you really go deeply enough into the subject) very well shows the difference between two societies and their understanding. Call me nuts, but that's what I was once told from someone living there (in those days) and it makes sense at least.... Florian |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-11-2010 09:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spaceflori:
So the autopen in fact (if you really go deeply enough into the subject) very well shows the difference between two societies and their understanding.
I think that's a little bit of a stretch. While autopens might be somewhat indicative of the differences between the two nations, it is vastly overshadowed by the prime example of how the two space programs were operated in the public eye. Remember that Soviet missions were often kept secret and were hidden until after they were over (and successful). American launches were done in full public view and televised for all to see, even if there was a risk of televising a live disaster. To many people, THAT fact is a much better illustration of the differences between the two nations. Autopens are an interesting part of collecting history, no doubt, and are indeed indicative of the popularity of the astronauts. But if I had to list the most important historical aspects of the US manned space program, autopens would simply not make that list. |
freshspot
unregistered
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posted 01-12-2010 04:59 AM
I am not a true autograph collector like many on cS. But I'd guess after "Mercury" "Gemini" and "Apollo" and a few others, "autopen" is the most used word on these discussion boards. It is a fascinating aspect of astronaut lore (for me at least) and I am thrilled to have a full set of Apollo autopen crew sigs. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-12-2010 05:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spaceflori:
In Russia it would have been offensive if cosmonauts used an autopen as according to their ideology everybody in the whole Soviet Union should have the same opportunity getting an authentic autograph of their heroes (whether this was actually true is another thing, of course).
I'm not convinced we fully understand the scope of "secretarial" signatures emanating from the former Soviet Union. However, I suspect one man's autopen is another man's secretarial, even though the cosmonauts probably signed a higher percentage of genuine autographs. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-12-2010 05:57 AM
It's certainly interesting to hear that some people really do collect Autopen signatures. I had always thought that people only bought them for reference purposes. We live and learn.  |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-12-2010 09:37 AM
Good point with secretarial signatures from Russia but other than Gagarin and Titov there shouldn't be much of a problem with secretarial signatures - 3rd party forgeries are a much bigger problem.I'm not saying autopens are THE only explanation for Russia and the US but a good example to demonstrate different ideologies and furthermore then how in reality they were handled. Nothing more or less. To me autopens are collectibles (because officially issued) and a fraud to the real collector in one. I would have prefered items rather unsigned than autopenned.
From that point of view I liked the Russian way of handling autograph requests much more than the US one. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-12-2010 03:25 PM
I'd agree with all that and certainly that 3rd party forgeries are much more prevalent than Russian secretarials. |
DOX32
Member Posts: 242
From: Lakewood Ranch FL USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 01-12-2010 03:35 PM
I have a large collection of autopens that I use for reference, and verification against genuine items. Autopen sites are an invaluable tool, as well.Same thing for secretarial items. They reminds me of goofs made in purchasing! All are worth setting aside for many reasons. Woody |
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