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Author
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Topic: Are these the same picture?
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Moltke
Member Posts: 63
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-06-2006 08:40 AM
   
I was recently browsing an online collection website and noticed the owner displaying a NASA red serial number photograph. On close inspection I noticed the signatures to be identical in size, intensity and positioning to a similar photograph which I own. I wrote to one of the most respected names in the business and received a very helpful, analytical and satisfactory opiinion.
In view of the fact that any Member could have a similar experience, I am now posing a few questions as food for thought.
Here are the two photographs:
The top copy is my original. It is covered by provenance letters all the way from the NASA office of James Webb including NASA stationary dated July 1st 1969.
The lower photograph is the one I discovered on the collector's website and which he presumably he purports to be part of his collection.
Now my questions:
Do you believe these to be images of the same photograph?
What action would you take on chancing upon something like this?
If the website photograph is copied, what do you think motivates this kind of behaviour?[This message has been edited by Moltke (edited May 06, 2006).] |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-06-2006 11:54 AM
I just overlaid one with the other, had to resize one a bit but once the images matched the sigs lined up perfectly as well ! I would say they are the same pic. Is the person showing this as being in their collection or merely as an example of a crew signed pic ? Adam |
Moltke
Member Posts: 63
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-06-2006 12:22 PM
Adam[/B][/QUOTE] Is the person showing this as being in their collection or merely as an example of a crew signed pic ? I don't think this is the issue.
The issue is that I have personal ownership of this photograph. My ownership has been violated through its use without my permission. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-06-2006 12:45 PM
I had a similar problem a while back. I have a nicely inscribed Ronnie Barker photo, which I bought from a dealer at Autographica a few years ago. Next thing I know is there's copies of it on sale on ebay. I contacted the sellers and a few of them were kind enough to pull their listings, but quite a few basically told me to "stuff it".
One even insisted that he owned the original, even though his was a smaller cropped version of my photograph which lined up with a portion of mine exactly. I was told by two of the sellers that they had bought CDROMs with scanned signed pictures on, so they could get them printed and sell them as preprints.
I believe that the dealer I bought my RB sig from had probably scanned his entire stock at hires and was one of these preprint sellers, its a good way of continuing to make money even though the item has been sold. My advice is contact the person displaying it, explain the situation, and see if they bought it as a preprint. Adam
P.S. I have found the website you mention, and I don't believe the person would purposely set out to deceive anyone, he's a real good guy. Mail him and have a chat. [This message has been edited by nasamad (edited May 06, 2006).] |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-06-2006 01:33 PM
When did you obtain the photo? Is it possible this has passed though a couple different collectors and perhaps a previous owner is just displaying a scan they made while it was their copy? |
Moltke
Member Posts: 63
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-06-2006 02:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
When did you obtain the photo? Is it possible this has passed though a couple different collectors and perhaps a previous owner is just displaying a scan they made while it was their copy?
The photo was in the ownership of Nina Scrivenor, secretary to James Webb. It was kept within her family, eventually passing to her nephew. It passed directly to a highly respected dealer who sold it to me. So no string of collector owners. |
Joe Davies
Member Posts: 258
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 05-06-2006 05:11 PM
This looks familiar!I acquired this directly from Ms. Scrivenor's nephew and sold it on Astro Auction to a collector. To my knowledge and recollection the only scan I ever took or posted on the internet was the offering on Astro Auction. Certainly the best Apollo 11 crew signed portrait I've ever seen with impeccable provenance, and which to my eternal regret I let go. Very rare in a Nasa numbered glossy and signed for the then head of Nasa. If scans are popping up on the internet they havent come from me, unless someone copied the original scan in my Astro auction listing. I just wanted to clarify that the chain of ownership is a short one (three owners to my knowledge - the Scrivener family, myself, and the current owner) and that any scans appearing on the internet have not knowlingly or with permission eminated from me, and I seriously doubt the Scrivener family have posted any scans. |
Moltke
Member Posts: 63
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-07-2006 12:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Davies:
This looks familiar!I acquired this directly from Ms. Scrivenor's nephew and sold it on Astro Auction to a collector. To my knowledge and recollection the only scan I ever took or posted on the internet was the offering on Astro Auction. Certainly the best Apollo 11 crew signed portrait I've ever seen with impeccable provenance, and which to my eternal regret I let go. Very rare in a Nasa numbered glossy and signed for the then head of Nasa. If scans are popping up on the internet they havent come from me, unless someone copied the original scan in my Astro auction listing. I just wanted to clarify that the chain of ownership is a short one (three owners to my knowledge - the Scrivener family, myself, and the current owner) and that any scans appearing on the internet have not knowlingly or with permission eminated from me, and I seriously doubt the Scrivener family have posted any scans.
Thanks for your posting, Joe . I am indeed the current owner you refer to therein and it was from you that the purchase was made.
Like you, I believe the photograph was only available on the internet at one time (until now!!!!), namely when it was listed on Astroauction. |
leslie
Member Posts: 231
From: Surrey, England
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 05-07-2006 04:21 AM
I also scrutinised the two pictures and am convinced they are one and the same.I also have a suspicion oon which website it is currently portrayed on and,in my opinion, alluding to ownership! Which is rather sad! Me? I wish I owned the item and may yet resort to burglary to get it, however, what's the point in copying and pretending it's mine? In my opinion, that member if reading this, should erase the image from the website without delay! As collectors, surely we can respect the privacy and ownership of others? ------------------
Leslie |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-07-2006 04:52 AM
Well as far as dealers go, I trust Joe implicitly, so the preprint theory goes out of the window on this one ! I will have to concur with Leslie now, and see what the response is from the website owner. Adam P.S. Joe, any Historicspace sales forthcoming ? |
Joe Davies
Member Posts: 258
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 05-07-2006 05:57 AM
Thank you very much Adam.
I dont wish to threadjack but to very quickly reply to your query - "possibly!"Back to the thread, I have no idea which website is being referred to, but as the gentleman here originally posting was the person who acquired it from me then we can confirm that the item has only had the 3 owners in its long history and if none of us have freely copied/preprinted/distributed an image of it then whoever is representing it is doing so without any sort of permission. If the image has been "lifted" from Astro Auction then its a pretty poor show doing so without the Astro Auction owner's permission, or the seller or buyer. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-07-2006 09:50 AM
Moltke, Do you have a website yourself where this could have been copied from or do you think it was taken from the AA site ? Adam |
Moltke
Member Posts: 63
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-07-2006 10:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
Moltke, Do you have a website yourself where this could have been copied from or do you think it was taken from the AA site ? Adam
Adam,
No website for display purposes. Only private photograph albums.
I can't speculate as to how the photograph arrived on a collector's website. The website owner would be the only person who could answer that.
Moltke
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machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 05-12-2006 05:59 AM
That is my website that you are talking about. I believed I'd got a bargain about 13 months ago when I bought that item... I have since come to realise that it is a pre-print/copy as there was an identical copy for sale on eBay some months ago.The seller I bought it from told me he got a whole bunch of items from the estate of a former NASA employee... seems he was talking through an orifice that was not his mouth. I am not the one who has copied your photograph and mean no harm by displaying the aforesaid item. As I paid good money for the item then as far as I am concerned, I'm quite at liberty to display it on my site but have updated it stating it is a pre-print/copy of someone elses original. - Derek P.S. [This message has been edited by machbusterman (edited May 12, 2006).] |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 05-12-2006 06:12 AM
Incidentally, there have been a number of items offered on eBay (copies) when the originals were listed on astro-auction. It could be that there those with questionable ethics who "prey" on obtaining a hi-res scan and then make money out of selling copies.If the owner of the original wants to contact me off-list to discuss this as the last thing I want to become involved with is a public slanging-match. - Derek |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-12-2006 10:20 AM
Man, you must be gutted about it being a preprint, I'm sorry to hear that Derek. Was it advertised as being signed. I wonder if you would have a case for refund ? I don't know if ebay have a time limit on stuff like that ? Glad to see its been sorted out anyway. Adam |
tegwilym
Member Posts: 2331
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 05-12-2006 11:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
I had a similar problem a while back. I have a nicely inscribed Ronnie Barker photo, which I bought from a dealer at Autographica a few years ago.
Hmmmm....interesting that you mention the name "Ronnie". Does this look familiar maybe?
http://www.geocities.com/tegwilym2/collection/autographs/sts-93.html I found this photo at a flea market a few years back....also signed to someone named Ronnie. Tom
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Moltke
Member Posts: 63
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-12-2006 11:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by machbusterman:
Incidentally, there have been a number of items offered on eBay (copies) when the originals were listed on astro-auction. It could be that there those with questionable ethics who "prey" on obtaining a hi-res scan and then make money out of selling copies.If the owner of the original wants to contact me off-list to discuss this as the last thing I want to become involved with is a public slanging-match. - Derek
Derek,
You have offered a very reasonable explanation as to how you came about this copy. I think you have been very fair in adding your new statement to your website.
A public slanging match was never likely as I am not really a public person and I never slang people. My reason for a private identity on public forums is that the item under discussion here is only one item in a fairly sizeable collection and I would not be happy about disclosing personal details, particularly my address, through such a medium. You will note, equally, that at no time did I personally identify you or your website.
I am more concerned about the issue than the personality. It is all too easy to right click and find oneself with an image from whatever source. Perhaps we are too lax in providing the opportunity to 'those with questionable ethics' particularly when we display our treasured items so publicly. Admittedly, the items would look less appealing if they were emblazoned with some copyright logo or the word'COPY', but perhaps it would deter the potential pirate.
Anyway, I will take you up on your offer to write you a note off-list (in due course). Moltke [This message has been edited by Moltke (edited May 12, 2006).] |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-12-2006 12:10 PM
Sorry Tom, in the UK we had a much loved comedy actor/writer called Ronnie Barker. It was a signed picture of him I was referring to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_Barker Adam
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Joe Davies
Member Posts: 258
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 05-12-2006 02:12 PM
On my own website when I offer items for sale I have a copyright statement regarding usage of any images on the website. But when I auctioned the crew portrait under discussion it absolutely never occured to me to try and issue some sort of copyright statement within the auction listing, in fact I don't ever recall anyone ever doing so in any online auction that I have ever seen. I guess most of us just blindly assume that images we post elsewhere will be protected by that site owner when in reality it's not really their responsibility. I suppose this a lesson learnt, and hopefully other sellers of high dollar images will watermark their scans as I now intend to do. It does detract from the presentation of the image but I think I'd rather do that in future and know that I had done everything possible to protect collectors from the scumbags who pass of prints as originals. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-13-2006 11:01 AM
This is certainly one of the risks of having a website to display your collection.
It is also a big reason that I have always liked inscribed photos better than non-inscribed ones. People are more likely to steal the non-inscribed items.
Sorry to hear about this unfortunate event.
We should keep a look out for these fakes. -Tahir
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mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-13-2006 11:26 AM
In order for someone to print up replicas (or "fakes") and to sell them off as being the real thing, you generally need to post an image that is high enough resolution in order for them to offer a fairly passable copy. As such, I don't think people need to fear displaying their collections online or add watermarks. If images are kept at or under 480x600 pixels (for a typical 8x10 photo), you can still have a nice resolution for display/auctions, but it wouldn't be good enough for printing purposes. The only thing more fun than collecting is to see what everyone else is collecting! Also, the more collections that are online displaying authentic examples of autographs, the more chances there are for new collectors to quickly educate themselves about what the authentic examples are supposed to look like. |
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