Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

Websites
related space history websites

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Buy, Sell, Trade
  FS: Large space autograph collection

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   FS: Large space autograph collection
spaceflori
Member

Posts: 1484
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-28-2018 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We are happy to announce the acquisition of a large space autograph collection that is now up for sale in our webshop.

More than 200 new shop items have been added including the finest autographed space material there is:

  • Apollo 11 mission patch insurance cover
  • Complete series of all Apollo crew signed covers including insurance covers
  • Neil Armstrong signed "Flag on the moon" 8x10 glossy
  • Several Neil Armstrong signed Apollo 11 and Gemini 8 related photos
  • Mercury all 7 complete signed cover
  • Moonwalker signed 8x10 moonwalk photos incl. Shepard
  • Various Alan Shepard signed photos and items
  • John Young signed 8x10 Apollo 16 WSS
  • Vladislav Volkov signed portrait
  • Bill Anders, Neil Armstrong, Charles Conrad and Dave Scott rare signed Gemini tracking station covers as Capcoms
  • Vladislav Volkov signed portrait
  • First Americans in Space Alan Shepard + John Glenn signed cover
...and much more! We guarantee any autograph to pass Steve Zarelli Authentication! If not, we'll refund any costs for certifications.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 533
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 02-28-2018 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You list some Apollo insurance covers. Are these crew signed covers or were they kept in the personal collection of a crew member for the benefit of the families, i.e. true insurance covers, and if so what crew member did they come from?

It seems so many crew signed cover are listed as insurance covers and these covers were never owned by any of the crew members in question.

spaceflori
Member

Posts: 1484
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000

posted 03-01-2018 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem with many Apollo 11 insurance covers is that they come from Joan Aldrin, but back in those days when they were selling at $100 a piece in the late 80s nobody cared about getting a statement from her or even on the other covers saying it's from an astronauts collection.

In fact I know many collector who dislike that recent "authentication delusion" since any recent addition of a certification alters a historical item.

I'm staying out of that discussion as both sides have their valid point.

That said many or most of the Apollo 15 insurance covers sold in Germany by Sieger actually come from Jim Irwin but were never labelled as such. Same applies to Apollo 14 sold by Borek coming from Mitchell I think.

Coelle sold many insurance covers directly from the astronauts in Germany but none ever had an inscription or extra certification.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 533
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 03-01-2018 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So the long and short is that these are crew signed covers. I have had this conversation with covers I purchased as "Insurance covers" years ago that I have been told over and over again are not as I cannot prove they were owned by a member of the prime crew. I do not advertise then as insurance covers when I sell them and I will never purchase another "Insurance cover" without rock solid provenance.

It kills me to see so many sell covers as Insurance with no documentation when I was berated for doing the same?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 38998
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-01-2018 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At the end of the day, the moment the crews landed safely back on Earth, the so-called "insurance covers" became nothing more than crew-signed covers. They were only ever insurance when the astronauts' lives were in jeopardy.

It is only collectors who have constructed a distinction between insurance and pre-flight signed mission covers, given the attraction of the story behind the insurance covers.

But post-flight, the astronauts apparently didn't treat them any differently from other pre-flight crew-signed covers until collectors (and/or dealers) began to make a point of labeling them differently.

(Even the separation between pre- and post-flight signed covers is a distinction only because of collectors.)

Ken Havekotte
Member

Posts: 2577
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 03-01-2018 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
True on some points, Robert, but "true insurance covers" were different than other regular Apollo pre/post flight signed covers.

The main distinction is the fact that true insurance covers were paid for by the crew to retain for their own collections and in the event of a flight tragedy, the families could profit from them.

In my opinion, that does make them unique in comparison to the many other Apollo crew signed postal covers that have no direct astronaut and/or family link tie.

When first working with insurance covers from Irwin and Conrad decades ago, they did treat them as somewhat "special signed covers," but at the time, it just wasn't an issue with such a definition of them not widely used. But the phrase "crew insurance cover" was known to them when discussing their own covers way back when.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 38998
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-01-2018 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree there is a difference in provenance, but physically a crew-signed cover is a crew-signed cover.

The market has decided to put a premium on "true insurance covers" based on their provenance — I believe due to the great story that provenance imparts — but a cover is a cover, an autograph is an autograph. And if something had prevented one of the Apollo crews from returning home, I think the distinction between "true insurance covers" and crew-signed covers on the collector's market would be much less than what it is today.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 533
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 03-02-2018 05:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, I guess the same could be said for all space artifacts. A flight suit is just a flight suit whether it is wrapped in a bag and never used by anyone, one used in training or if it was flown on a mission. Even mission hardware is just hardware with no difference between flown to the moon or if it is just a spare that never got close to a launch pad.

It is the provenance, the story, the history behind these items that drive price and as auction history will show some words drive up prices to collectors like: "flown," "used in training" and of course "Insurance cover."

If there is no distinction to be made from the true history of an artifact then you are correct there all just crew signed covers and the crazy prices being paid for these covers must be the act of over excited bidders who have no idea what there buying.

It is my contention that many dealers use these words to drive up prices and suckers like myself often pay them as we feel they are "reputable dealers."

So yes it does matter and when someone pays huge money for and artifact from a "respectable dealer" they should get "exactly" what they pay for, with no question of authenticity.

Also, Florian made general statements of where these covers could have come from but in no way said these covers were from those sources. It is provenance that drives price and if you have no idea where your covers came from these should all be listed as "insurance type covers."

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 38998
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-02-2018 07:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe there is a difference between an artifact and memorabilia. The latter was created from the start to be a souvenir (e.g. autographs, covers, medallions, etc.), while the earlier had a functional purpose toward its given mission's or program's operation.

Personally, I draw a line between how artifacts and memorabilia are considered. That's my personal approach; I am not suggesting others should to do the same, but it informs my opinion on the market.

That said, I am also not suggesting that descriptions for memorabilia (and artifacts) should not be as precise as possible. My comments above were not about this specific sale, but more a general sense about how much weight is put one crew-signed cover versus another.

Chuckster01
Member

Posts: 533
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014

posted 03-02-2018 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, how about this for a fact. If you research auction results for Apollo 11 signed covers I think you will find from 2015 through today the phrase "insurance cover" brings 3 to 4 times the final hammer price.

Apollo 11 signed covers have been selling in the $2,500 to $3,500 range while Apollo 11 insurance covers are selling in the $9,000 to $11,000 range. There are of course a few exceptions.

This is a huge reason to add a single word in the description of an items.

Of the cover sold at auction about 50% list the astronaut who owned the cover and 50% do not meaning they may in fact be just crew signed.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 38998
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-02-2018 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And therein lies my point; I can understand a slight premium for a so-called "true insurance cover" based on the story behind its creation, but the disparity that exists on the market today between a cover that a crew member retained until he was safely home and one that he signed and gave away shortly before or soon after that same mission seems to be a distinction without a difference.

I hold no illusions that the market is going to change and I have no stake in this game (I don't collect insurance covers nor any type of Apollo-era memorabilia), but it seems to be one of the unique examples in our hobby where two items identical in appearance and distances logged are looked at so differently.

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 2018 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement