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Author
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Topic: FS: Apollo 11 signed crew photo
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elw
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posted 11-04-2011 05:12 PM
   
I have for sale this signed Apollo 11 crew photo that my father gave to me years ago. My father was a hunting guide on the Katy Prairie from 1964 to approximately 1975 (after he got out of the army and moved back to the Houston area). He took out many astronauts hunting. He worked for the Old Capitol Club at the Rice Hotel before and after the army and met a lot of people that he would then guide through these contacts. My father was also good friends with a lab technician at NASA and he knew the astronauts from his job and hunting with my father.There is another picture of the moon along with the signed crew photo but it is not signed. The photos have been kept in a folder/envelope the entire time so have not seen light. I will include a letter regarding the history of the crew photo for reference. I corresponded with RR regarding this item and they told me that it is "a nice item and quite unique. After initial review of your photo we thought that the Michael Collins' signature looked a bit off and was not likely signed by him. After a second review, it is our opinion that Collins' signature is not in his hand but in Armstrong's! We would be happy to represent this in an upcoming auction." I don't know if this is true but wanted to let people know their opinion. Please contact me by email if you are interested. I would like to sell this item plus the other photo for at least $5,000. I am happy to send a PDF of the other moon photo separately. Thank you.  |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 11-04-2011 05:18 PM
Time to get the popcorn out...this ought to be a good discussion. A Mike Collins signature forged by Neil Armstrong?! This could be worth a fortune! |
Dougin SoCA
Member Posts: 111
From: Aliso Viejo, Ca, USA
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 11-04-2011 06:15 PM
This one is driving my crazy. I'm almost certain I was looking at this one on either eBay or this site in the last few days, but can't find it anywhere now. What caught my eye was the unusual inscription in what looked like Armstrong's hand, but beneath the Mike Collins' signature. Is it posted somewhere else on this site, and I'm just overlooking it now?Update: I dug back a little father and it was on this site, but under the "Opinions & Advice" section posted October 24, 2011 07:15 PM |
elw
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posted 11-04-2011 06:46 PM
I welcome all comments and thoughts as I am new to collectSPACE. This should be interesting. I posted it under opinions before to figure out what anyone thought about it. I had a couple of really nice members give feedback about the picture. Thanks so much. |
elw
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posted 11-05-2011 10:46 AM
Please feel free to make an offer of less than my asking price. I'm open to any offers. Thank you. |
liftoff1
Member Posts: 235
From: Cumberland, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 11-08-2011 05:35 PM
I really question R&R's opinion on this item. I don't see anything concerning the Collins signature that appears out of the ordinary excepting the fact that he signed "Michael" instead of "Mike". The penmanship appears to be his handwriting. Notice that the strokes are wider than Armstrong's so I certainly don't feel that Neil added the siganture. Has anyone ever seen, or heard of, an example where Neil added one of the other Apaollo 11 crewmembers's name to a piece? |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 11-08-2011 08:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by liftoff1:
Has anyone ever seen, or heard of, an example where Neil added one of the other Apaollo 11 crewmembers's name to a piece?
I do remember a previous thread or two, with scans as evidence, here on cS about Neil signing Mike's and Buzz's names to crew photos. He actually seemed to be relatively good at approximating their signatures, based on the examples pictured. |
liftoff1
Member Posts: 235
From: Cumberland, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 11-09-2011 07:55 AM
That is interesting. I have tried several search options and have had no luck in finding any such posts. Perhaps whomever posted those examples would be able to repost them. I would be very interested in seeing some examples as I have never seen any in the past nor do I recall seeing the posts that you mention. It might be a good learning tool for all to have them reposted and I would certainly welcome them. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42987
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-09-2011 09:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by liftoff1:
I have tried several search options and have had no luck in finding any such posts.
See: 330107733815: Apollo 11 signatures (unfortunately, as this dates back to 2007, the eBay listing and its scans of the piece in question are long offline...).On edit: Courtesy Chris Spain, a scan of the 2007 eBay lot has now been added to the linked thread. With the benefit of four years of additional knowledge, we now know the signatures are not in Armstrong's hand as then proposed but are of the "secretarial" style seen since (and documented on Chris' autopen website). |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-10-2011 10:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
With the benefit of four years of additional knowledge, we now know the signatures are not in Armstrong's hand as then proposed but are of the "secretarial" style seen since (and documented on Chris' autopen website).
I have to disagree. The Apollo 11 secretarial signatures displayed on Chris' site bear no resemblance to the Collins and Aldrin signatures shown on this item. See this comparison for a side-by-side view of each type. I still believe there is a strong likelihood that Armstrong himself wrote out the Collins and Aldrin signatures...same pen type, line weight, signature orientation, etc. Until more conclusive evidence to the contrary is presented (or a different secretarial style emerges), I think we must still consider that Armstrong could be the source of the signatures on that 2007 auction item. I am not convinced, however, the item at the top of this thread (that R&R initially rejected) has a Collins signature done in the hand of Armstrong. If anything, the Collins signature appears to be done with a slightly different pen (than the Armstrong) and the line weight is somewhat thicker. A higher resolution scan is needed, however, to make a better judgment call. |
Dougin SoCA
Member Posts: 111
From: Aliso Viejo, Ca, USA
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 11-10-2011 03:25 PM
I simply can't believe that Mr. Armstrong would have forged his compatriots signatures, especially so well (he doesn't seem the type of person do think this was appropriate). I will have to agree with others here that this will remain a mystery until more information can be acquired for it. Surely someone must have a way of contacting Mr. Armstrong, and since it would not be for an autograph request, possibly he might be willing to shed some light on it. Next option, ask Mr. Aldrin or Collins for their insights. This might be something they might remember coming across since it is very unusual. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-10-2011 04:02 PM
I doubt this is a matter that Armstrong himself would comment on. Either he wouldn't remember the specifics of this particular item or he simply wouldn't want to comment.Armstrong may not have viewed himself as creating a set of forgeries, but may have simply been signing on behalf of his crewmates...who could have been unavailable to sign. It's similar to applying an autopen for an astronaut who is not available to sign. I agree that we'll probably never know for sure...unless more examples appear that are better documented. For now, all we can do is to judge the item based on the available evidence. (Note: This type of thing happens in the non-astronaut world too. For example, several sets of Beatles signatures have appeared where one of Beatle has forged the signatures of his three bandmates...presumably because the other three weren't available to sign when they replied to the fan's letter. Paul did this the most, but John and George have done this as well.) |
liftoff1
Member Posts: 235
From: Cumberland, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 11-10-2011 06:20 PM
Considering the number of crew photos that are signed ONLY by Armstrong I would have to agree that it is unlikely he did any signing for his fellow crewmates. The examples presented by Chris Spain are forgeries that even a novice would probably detect. There just isn't any comparison between those examples and the one offered by the OP. I have no doubt that the Aldrin is authentic and still fail to see the problem(s) that R&R has with the Collins. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-10-2011 06:53 PM
I think there might be some confusion over what items are thought to have Armstrong-applied forgeries.As far as I can tell, the only people claiming the item at the top of this thread has an Armstrong-applied forgery of Collins is R&R. (To my knowledge, nobody has claimed the Aldrin was a forgery.) I agree the Collins here might be a legitimate signature...though a higher resolution scan is needed. Whereas, the item in this thread is the one that myself (and others) think has a good chance of having an Armstrong-applied forgery of Aldrin and Collins. |
Dougin SoCA
Member Posts: 111
From: Aliso Viejo, Ca, USA
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 11-12-2011 02:18 AM
Haven't I read here on this forum that Mr. Armstrong made it a point to not sign his name across the American flag on any of his autographs? This one the greeting does cross over the American flag patch on his suit. Is this an issue? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42987
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-12-2011 04:24 AM
While the inscription does infringe the flag's blue field it doesn't directly crossover the flag. And the "flag test" authors have said they meant it only as an observation to identify a specific set of forgeries that, among other traits, had consistently positioned the signature counter to where Armstrong normally signed his portrait.There are numerous authentic examples of Armstrong's inscriptions and even his signature that touch the flag's boundaries. |
liftoff1
Member Posts: 235
From: Cumberland, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 11-14-2011 05:58 PM
Here are higher resolution scans of the Collins signature. I am also including scans of Armstrong and Aldrin. I still see more similarities (long first stroke of the letter "M" ...total lack of the letter "C" in the first name).  
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Michael1976
Member Posts: 106
From: Chandler, AZ 85249
Registered: Nov 2011
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posted 11-14-2011 08:21 PM
I'll throw this out there... the whole picture is a forgery. The sharpie ink looks like it was signed yesterday. Armstrong hasn't signed in 17 years and more closely to 20. Over that time there should be bleed through of the signatures into the photo.. But there isn't in this case. No way this photo passes PSA or JSA authentication. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42987
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-14-2011 09:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael1976:
No way this photo passes PSA or JSA authentication.
I'd suggest that would say much more about the value (or rather lack thereof) of PSA or JSA than the authenticity of these autographs. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-14-2011 11:26 PM
I'll throw this out there...the entire thing is authentic.
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spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 11-15-2011 12:55 AM
After seeing the detail I would lean towards the Collins being genuine but likely rushed. It shows some atypical features but most of the strokes are smooth and flowing and match with Collins' real signature (in areas that forgeries usually struggle with). |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-15-2011 07:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
I'll throw this out there...the entire thing is authentic.
Agreed. A-OK. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-15-2011 07:46 AM
I'll third that! Although it probably has more value if the Collins signature is "in Armstrong's hand."  |
Michael
Member Posts: 309
From: Brooklyn New York
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 11-15-2011 08:14 AM
If Bob and Chris say it is authentic... I am with them. I don't know who is authenticating for R&R but I was very comfortable with Scott. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 11-15-2011 11:46 AM
To be fair, R&R apparently said that they would be happy to include it in an auction. I cannot speak for them, but in my opinion: Whomever they have authenticating for them, that person's job is not to say whether something is authentic or not. That person's job is to determine whether the item is typical enough to be comfortably sold as authentic. If they refuse something, it does not necessarily mean they are saying it is fake. They are simply saying that either (1) The item does not fit within the limits of what they are trying to sell, or (2) They are not entirely comfortable with the authenticity of an item to place their own reputation at risk with its sale. I believe all three autographs on the item in question are likely real, but when authenticating something as valuable as an Apollo 11 crew litho, "atypical" is not a good thing ... although the Collins is not so atypical as to cause me any concerns. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-15-2011 04:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
To be fair, R&R apparently said that they would be happy to include it in an auction.
The only problem is they apparently said they will auction the item if the Collins signature is advertised as having been signed by Armstrong. I personally believe such a description would be inaccurate for this item...which could also impact the final sale price the consignor receives. Ultimately, I agree it's up to R&R to decide what meets their criteria for a reasonable level of assurance regarding authenticity. If they won't accept the Collins signature on this piece as authentic, the consignor may wish to consider using another auction house. |
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