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Author
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Topic: ISS Expedition 17 insignia
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ShuttleDiscovery
Member Posts: 73
From:
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted April 08, 2008 10:12 AM
  
I totally agree!IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 13186
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted April 08, 2008 10:19 AM
quote:
(I do not think that should be much of a problem, if AB can make a three name they also can make a 4 name patch... right?)
AB can, of course, make anything we desire (and pay for), but the point I thought was that AB did not make a four name patch for NASA or the crew. quote:
I do not think we will ever see a Expedition 17 crew member wearing a three-name patch in space
I think that it is too early to say and will rely in part on what STS-124 brings to the station...IP: Logged |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 147
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 08, 2008 10:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
So my vote is to make a four name patch (I do not think that should be much of a problem, if AB can make a three name they also can make a 4 name patch... right?)
I also agree. Furtheron, if I understand the AB's statement correctly they already made both, the 3 name AND the 4 name patch for NASA only but NASA didn't approve. This means it should be much easier, isn't it? Harald IP: Logged |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 1362
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted April 08, 2008 12:07 PM
Let me try to clear this up based on my communication with AB.The Astronaut Office has NOT APPROVED a four name version. Therefore as NASA's "official patch supplier" they WILL NOT sell it to us. The Astronaut Office HAS APPROVED a three name version with either Reisman or Chamitoff as the third name. Maybe after STS-124 launches AB will be allowed to offer a four name version. Tim IP: Logged |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 162
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted April 08, 2008 05:08 PM
Hello guys. I can not believe this topic now.What are we looking for? The LAUNCH PATCH? Then it's clear: THE FOUR NAMES ONE IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR. So we must to ask AB to made this for us... (I think...) Jorge IP: Logged |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 243
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted April 08, 2008 07:20 PM
So let me see if I have this right:The 3-name patch is the only one officially approved by NASA's astronaut office aside from the no-name patch, but... The 4-name patch is the one being used by the Russians for the Sokol suits? ------------------
Bill Hunt IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 13186
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted April 08, 2008 07:29 PM
This is not the first time we have encountered a discrepancy between what NASA has considered the official insignia and what the Soyuz crew has chosen to wear. Therefore, I'll make a modest proposal: From this point forward, for the sake of reference by collectors, the patches worn on Sokol suits should be referred to only as Soyuz mission patches and the design approved by NASA will be the Expedition patch. Thus, in this case, the four name version is the Soyuz Expedition 17 patch and the three name version is the ISS Expedition 17 patch. Does that make sense? IP: Logged |
aerospace educator
Member Posts: 92
From:
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted April 08, 2008 08:10 PM
Whenever I encounter flights where there are variations in patch design, as with the Expedition 15 & 17 designs, I wait to see what is worn during launch/landing and what is posted inside the ISS. Thus, the 4-person Expedition 17 patch is the "Sokol version." When the crew post their patch in the ISS, it will be the "inflight version." If there is another variation posted inside the ISS before undocking and landing, it would be "inflight version 2". I really don't care what NASA says is "official," but if I have one of these patches, I would designate it as an "unflown NASA version." Any other patch variations would be designated as "unflown versions."This system has worked for me, because I keep my patches attached to 80 lb paper inside clear plastic "sheet protectors" and organised chronologically by mission inside 4-inch binders. For each mission, I include at least an image of every patch worn by the crew during the mission. I currently have 20 binders of patches and patch images (cause we all can't get those one-of-a-kind patches). Each image is accompanied by a printed description of the patch, along with notes about when it was worn and whether it is a replica of the worn version, a close approximation, or a souvenir version. IP: Logged |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 147
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 09, 2008 01:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
This is not the first time we have encountered a discrepancy between what NASA has considered the official insignia and what the Soyuz crew has chosen to wear.
I have checked the Expedition 13 situation again and this patch is the only one which is left on the station in two versions (First picture from Exp.13 and second picture from Exp.14 with rearranged decals.) The first one (top row right in Exp.13 picture) only shows the names of the "launched crew" with Williams and Vinogradov. For this crew an AB patch exists. Slightly overlapping on the left side the second one is shown with the "inflight crew" Williams, Vinogradov and Reiter showing the names and the German flag. But the official patch approved by NASA and made by AB has the name Reiter but not the German flag.Therefore the "aerospace educator system" sounds reasonable. The more global view shows space patch collecting in nower days to turn out to be a detective hobby  Harald IP: Logged |
aerospace educator
Member Posts: 92
From:
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted April 09, 2008 08:39 AM
Randy Hunt made an Expedition 13 patch with the "inflight crew" Williams, Vinogradov and Reiter, showing the names and the German flag. In my collection, the patch is considered a replica of the "inflight version" patch.IP: Logged |
Jacques van Oene
Member Posts: 489
From: Houten, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted April 09, 2008 08:41 AM
If I may say something, again... sorry...I find it hard to believe that AB emblem will or can NOT make a 4 name Exp-17 patch just because NASA has not approved it. AB is a commercial company that makes patches for who-ever wants them (I'm I right about this?). So when we from cS ask them to make a 4 name patch, just like the Soyus crew wears on their suits, and pay for it... I can not believe that they will not make it, only because NASA does not like it... And who made the patches the crew has on their suits? AB? I hope we can get one good final clear answer on this... (If AB will not make a 4 name patch, we have to look at another company that can make them for us...) ------------------
Jacques
www.spacepatches.nl IP: Logged |
lm5eagle
Member Posts: 97
From:
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted April 09, 2008 09:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
If AB will not make a 4 name patch, we have to look at another company that can make them for us
Jacques, I am with you 100%. Time for AB to stop acting high and mighty. If they don't accept the order, they deprive themselves of the business. There are other quality patch manufacturers out there.A friend of mine had some beautiful stuff fabricated by Stewart Aviation in the U.K. Andy IP: Logged |
aerospace educator
Member Posts: 92
From:
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted April 09, 2008 09:50 AM
Stewat Aviation makes some great patches. Many of my Soviet/Russian patches were produced by them. Of course, the downside is the lousy state of the dollar. At $1.97 for £1, the cost will be dear.IP: Logged |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 147
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 09, 2008 01:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
(If AB will not make a 4 name patch, we have to look at another company that can make them for us...)
I know a German company that has the following prices: minimum number patches 30: $10 each
minimum number patches 50: $6.25 each This includes up to 12 colors and 100% embroidery. It will take 3-4 weeks for processing. Shipping to the collector is on top. Harald
IP: Logged |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 1362
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted April 10, 2008 11:58 AM
I contacted JSC and requested some clarification to this apparent discrepancy between what AB currently offers and what we saw launched.Here is the reply (with my edits). Hopefully it will help us all understand why. Currently long-duration crewmembers are very limited on the number of names they can include on a patch before they fly. This is to minimize the number of patches produced with incorrect names, for instance in case of a shuttle launch slip or crew swap. The informal policy is that crewmembers can only order and launch with a limited number of patches with the names of the crewmembers that are currently on-board for their expedition (and their own name included). They are not to include names of crewmembers that have not yet flown. That way there won’t be hundreds of patches lying around with the wrong names. Once they are on-board, the office orders more patches with the limited names.
Once an expedition is complete, the patch with all the names of crewmembers that were on the expedition is produced. The only downside is that that complete patch did not fly with the crewmembers.
The vendor makes a limited number “pre-production” patches with all the names for approval by the crew. In this case, you saw the only two full-name patches that I know of. These “pre-production” patches were delivered to Russia for the Sokol suits. So my take is that once Expedition 17 is complete AB Emblem should be able to offer a four name patch. Until then I am prepared to settle with a no-name version or the three name version (Volkov-Kononenko and Reisman). It's up to everyone to make their own decision. I will still accept orders for the three-name version until the end of the month. If you have committed to a number of patches -please re-confirm with me. If we reach a minimum order I'll place the order - if not I'll reutrn your payments in full. I hope this helps you decide. Tim
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ShuttleDiscovery
Member Posts: 73
From:
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted April 10, 2008 02:43 PM
I think we should still go ahead with a 3 name version becuase if AB don't make them for public then they are very rare patches and therefore worth having!IP: Logged |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 243
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted April 10, 2008 04:47 PM
Great work, Tim. So AB already has the no-name version available for pre-order. Given what Tim has learned, I say we go ahead with the 3-name version now, and then order a 4-name version later, once this expedition ends. Tim, put me down for 3 of the 3-name patches. I'll send you payment shortly. Well done again.------------------
Bill Hunt IP: Logged |
Jacques van Oene
Member Posts: 489
From: Houten, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted April 13, 2008 11:03 AM
 Looking at the different patches (the crew 4 name patch, the AB no name patch and the AB 3 name prototype, that we are going to make), I and Luc spotted some mistakes or differences between them (see picture). - The biggest mistake is the wrong name for Kononenko. In every Russian document his name is with an "E" and not with an "e" like in the NASA art (take a good look at the 4 name patch on my site).
- On the 3 name prototype patch the field of stars is to far left, compared to the no name from AB...
- ISS-17 is to dark, has to be same colour blue as border of flags, not the colour blue as in the russian flag...
- The dark field in the earth is missing on the no name patch, dark earth with light blue border...
- Russian names too far up?
So do we want a good patch, or are we just making the 3 name that Tim got a picture of or... are we just going to wait and see what type of different patches are going to show up on photos from ISS, and STS-124... ------------------
Jacques
www.spacepatches.nl IP: Logged |
aerospace educator
Member Posts: 92
From:
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted April 13, 2008 12:18 PM
Always on top of things you are, Jacques and Luc. Scrutinizing the patches as you did, you saw things most of us missed. I know I missed them. I am still voting for the 4-crew patch as seen on the launch/entry Sokols. We'll see what is put on the bulkhead of the Destiny module, but I am guessing it will be the same 4-person patch or, perhaps, the no name one. Expedition 15 placed the same 3-person patch in Destiny that they wore on their Sokols. It should be only a few days after docking that the Expedition 17 patch will be affixed to Destiny's bulkhead. Then, we will know.IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 13186
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted April 13, 2008 12:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
So do we want a good patch, or are we just making the 3 name that Tim got a picture of or... are we just going to wait and see what type of different patches are going to show up on photos from ISS, and STS-124...
The answer seems really simple to me: whatever patch AB produced for NASA as a 3-name version and which in turn, the agency approved for its internal/inflight use is the patch we should be ordering.IP: Logged |
aerospace educator
Member Posts: 92
From:
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted April 13, 2008 12:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: The answer seems really simple to me: whatever patch AB produced for NASA as a 3-name version and which in turn, the agency approved for its internal/inflight use is the patch we should be ordering.
I respectfully disagree, as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread. In my collection, I prefer "flown" versions of patches and consider the fact that the astronauts/cosmonauts chose to wear them as the definitive mark of "official." After all, they approved and selected the final design of the patch (patches) and should be considered the official selection committee.IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 13186
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted April 13, 2008 01:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aerospace educator:
After all, they approved and selected the final design of the patch (patches) and should be considered the official selection committee.
When we say "NASA approved", as Tim's posts point out, it is the Astronaut Office that is approving the patches. So it is the astronauts who chose the 3-name version over the 4-name version.But on the subject of the 4-name version, as again Tim wrote, the two 4-name patches worn by Volkov and Kononenko were made by AB. AB will sell that version of the patch to us after NASA gives approval at the end of the expedition. Thus, instead of ordering a replica from a third-party company, I am only advocating we wait for the authentic 4-name version and order the 3-name one now. IP: Logged |
ShuttleDiscovery
Member Posts: 73
From:
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted April 13, 2008 02:49 PM
I agree with you Robert. We should produce the 3 name version now, as this has been accepted by NASA. Then we should wait until we make the 4 name version.IP: Logged |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 147
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 13, 2008 02:59 PM
Jacques and Luc, nice detailed look at the patches.In addition I had a further look at Expedition crew patches: - if you see other Exp. patches you will find russian names containing an "E" and therefore it looks like that the russian names also are using capitals and if so the "e" is definitely wrong. Therefore the published patches on the NASA site are interesting as they show a "e" in the name Kononenko.
- on April 7 the Exp.17 crew wears Exp.17 patches on their blue overalls that are different from the ones which we see on launch day. On April 7 it is one with "e" and on launch day the one you show here with "E". Would be interesting to know whether AB did make both versions.
HaraldIP: Logged |
Mike Z
Member Posts: 172
From: Ellicott City, Maryland
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted April 13, 2008 03:20 PM
I don't know why but it seems like NASA and AB Emblem do not like collectors these days. We pay taxes to help support NASA. And buying patches from AB Emblem is only "GOOD" for their business. Why are they making everything so hard? In my opinion NASA should be thanking supporters of the space program!! Mike Z IP: Logged |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 243
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted April 13, 2008 06:38 PM
It's certainly gotten frustrating when you can't even quite determine which patch is real or "official." I don't even mind when there are two or three different versions, as long as we have access to purchase the genuine article at a fair price.I also agree with Robert... we should purchase the 3-name version now, and after the mission, AB will let us purchse the 4-name version. Jacques, as far as the thread colors being different, it could the result of the lighting differences, and the fact that the patches have been photographed at different angles. Good spot though on the other differences.  ------------------
Bill Hunt IP: Logged |
Mike Z
Member Posts: 172
From: Ellicott City, Maryland
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted April 13, 2008 08:12 PM
I agree we should purchase the three name patch and when the four name patch is available we can buy that too. As for color of the threads in the patch, photography and lighting really makes a huge difference. I saw it in photos taken of the Baltimore Orioles players when I was in baseball. Sometimes the players hats looked light orange, sometimes red orange or even red. It was all about who photographed the player and what the lighting situation was and I know the hat was the same. Also sometimes the dye in the thread could differ slightly and bright lights could bring the color out. Mike Z IP: Logged |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 162
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted April 14, 2008 05:02 AM
I think the different Earth color is not a light angle effect: there are two colors in 3 names-"Tim"-patch: dark blue in center and light in borders of the Earth. It is quite different from the others with a totally light blue Earth. (Of course stars, names position and "e" vs "E" makes the patches very animated).I agree Robert about to wait to the AB 4 names instead to make it with another company but... anytime WILL BE on board the ISS a 3 names patch? I do not believe it. Jorge. IP: Logged |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 1362
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted April 17, 2008 06:03 PM
Just a reminder that if you want to order the 3 name patch, you have less than two weeks.I plan to contact AB with the issues raised about the differences in the patches. I'll write again when I have their answer. My goal is for everyone to be aware of exactly what they are getting. Tim IP: Logged |
NavySpaceFan
Member Posts: 255
From: Norfolk, VA
Registered: May 2007
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posted April 18, 2008 01:19 PM
I just looked at the HD replay of yesterday's ISS change of command, and I noticed, after Dr. Reisman changed into his Exp. 17 flight suit, that he was wearing the three name version of the patch while Volkov and Kononenko wore the four name version.IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 13186
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted April 18, 2008 01:26 PM
Now that the three-name version has been seen in space and we know that the only way of getting that three-name version is through a custom order with AB, are we all back on track about ordering the three-name patch, as originally suggested/planned?IP: Logged |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 1362
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted April 21, 2008 10:29 AM
As promised I have contacted AB Emblem with these questions that Jacques emailed me. My edits today are in parentheses. quote:
There have been some questions raised about the 3 name patch we are going to special order from you. Please address them as best you can so I can reassure everyone.(from Jacques) And I also found that that there are a lot of mistakes in the 3 name patch you got from AB compared to the 4 name patch the crew is wearing... and the no name patch from AB... see scan... - The biggest mistake is the wrong name for Kononenko. In every Russian document his name is with an "E" and not with an "e" like in the NASA art take a good look at the 4 name patch on my site. (AB addressed this in one of my earlier posts)
- On the 3 name prototype patch the field of stars is to far left, compared to the no name from AB...
- ISS-17 is to dark, has to be same colour blue as border of flags, not the colour blue like in the Russian flag...
- The dark field in the earth is missing on the no name patch, light blue border...
- Russian names to far up?
(from me) I would add that "ISS-17" appears too dark in the images you sent. I'll admit it could be the lighting conditions. (I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.)My other question concerns the number of patches. Can I assume any number more than 50 and less than 100 would be offered at the price for 50 patches? I ask because I can't say we'll reach 100. Thanks so much for putting up with our minutiae. I look forward to your reply.
The entire reply from AB Emblem: quote:
Every emblem is sent for approval through the astronaut office. Many times, the astronauts will make subtle changes on the designs after the graphic has been sent out to public domain. The changes in the designs which we manufacture after their final approval reflect the "official" approved design. Expedition 17 went through several revisions before being finally approved. Therefore, the uniqueness of the final designs are based solely on the requests of the astronauts themselves and will not necessarily reflect the original graphic which was sent out to the public.
Unfortunately they did not address each separate concern expressed. Maybe they were too busy, I don't know. Decide if you want to order a 3 name patch based on the availble information. Tim IP: Logged |
Mike Z
Member Posts: 172
From: Ellicott City, Maryland
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted April 21, 2008 10:54 AM
To get things going, I definitely want the 3 name patch!! I feel if I don't get this patch the only time it will be available, I will miss out on getting a rare patch and I will be sorry! That's a heck of a lot better than just getting the no name patch!I also want to THANK Tim for taking his time and going out of his way for everyone! Mike Z IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 13186
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted April 21, 2008 09:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KAPTEC:
...anytime WILL BE on board the ISS a 3 names patch? I do not believe it.
Jorge, believe it... 
And zooming in on the Expedition 17 patch... 
You can also see Garrett Reisman wearing the same patch. As for any remaining color/design differences, I would suggest that the illustration AB provided Tim was of a prototype patch and not the final production version as evidenced by the stars being offset. I would be surprised if the patch we receive is not identical to the one hanging in the ISS as pictured above or as Reisman is seen wearing in the linked photo. IP: Logged |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 243
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted April 21, 2008 11:27 PM
Fascinating. Reisman (in that linked image of the crew) is wearing the 3-name version, but it still has the little dot near his name. Meanwhile, the 3-name version without the dot goes up on the station bulkhead. And Volkov and Kononenko are both wearing the 4-name verison, except that you can tell the patches are clearly of different manufacture, or were at least an earlier prototype. The thread colors are visibly different. So frankly, it seems as if the ONLY patch that isn't in space right now is the blank one that AB is selling to the public (unless someone posts a picture of that patch in orbit too)!------------------
Bill Hunt IP: Logged |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 147
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 22, 2008 02:10 AM
And it looks like both patches (Reisman and Volkov/Kononenko) do have the "e" instead of an "E" in the name Kononenko.Harald IP: Logged |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 162
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted April 22, 2008 04:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Jorge, believe it...
 As we said here in Spain I must to eat my words... You had the reason and I beg your pardon: here is the 3 names one. So we have (by the moment) two "official" patches, the 3 (on ISS) and the 4 (launch day) names... Will we get ALL of them, 3-4-5, but the no names as official patches at last?  Jorge. IP: Logged |
NavySpaceFan
Member Posts: 255
From: Norfolk, VA
Registered: May 2007
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posted April 22, 2008 08:03 AM
Okay, now where did the black background come from? Unless it is a trick of the lighting, it looks like the four name patch in the pic Rob linked to is black vice blue. This is getting weird!IP: Logged |
Jacques van Oene
Member Posts: 489
From: Houten, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted April 22, 2008 08:43 AM
Well then lets start making the 3 name patch as seen on ISS
------------------
Jacques :) www.spacepatches.nl IP: Logged |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 162
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted April 22, 2008 02:45 PM
I agree you Jacques. Tim, go ahead! I'll write you off the Forum.Cheers.
Jorge. IP: Logged |
