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  ISS Expedition 17 insignia (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   ISS Expedition 17 insignia
ShuttleDiscovery
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posted 04-03-2008 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShuttleDiscovery   Click Here to Email ShuttleDiscovery     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KSCartist:
Both of those images had either Reisman or Chamitoff opposite the two Russians.
Are you saying that the Chamitoff version just has Chamitoff's name plus the two Russians, or does this one have Reisman's name on it too like the computerised versions?

KSCartist
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posted 04-03-2008 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the images I recieved from AB both of the Russians Volkov and Kononenko are on the left side. Either Reisman - or - Chamitoff are on the right side as the image in my posting at 4:09pm on 2 April illustrates.

Oh and one more point, the border is "Faux OL" which means it is designed to look like a merrowed border but is actually a cut border. Per AB this is holding true to the "official patch."

Harald Kraenzel
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posted 04-03-2008 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I understand that there will be one having Reisman. But will there be also a patch with Chamitoff?

Further on once again a question concerning the Russian names: do someone know who made the patch having the "E" as showing in a picture above as AB did the one with "e"?

Mike Z
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posted 04-03-2008 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Z   Click Here to Email Mike Z     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Expedition 17 crew photo is online on NASA's Human Space Flight Gallery.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-03-2008 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, that's the Soyuz TMA-12 crew photo. The Expedition 17 crew photo would be Volkov, Kononenko and Reisman.

KSCartist
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posted 04-05-2008 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks to the commitment from Jacques, we should have no problem reaching a minimum order threshold.

I will accept orders until April 30th. I will place the order with AB Emblem then and when that happens everyone is committed. Following this schedule I should recieve the patches by the third week of May.

Please download and complete the order form and include it with proper payment along with a self addressed envelope to either myself or Jacques.

I'm glad I was able to help.

Jacques van Oene
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posted 04-05-2008 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacques van Oene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let me jus add that I do accept Paypal so you do not have to send cash money to me... (and I do NOT accept cheques or money orders, costs to much to collect them).

Payment in Euros is also fine with me.

Jacques van Oene
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posted 04-07-2008 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacques van Oene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Guys, I think this will be the patch the crew is going to wear tomorrow on their Sokol Suits. This photo was taken today, it's a four name Expedition 17 patch... so I think we should make this patch, and not a three name patch... what do you think?

(I'm only interested in the patch the crew has on their suits... not in a patch that does not see space.)

ShuttleDiscovery
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posted 04-07-2008 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShuttleDiscovery   Click Here to Email ShuttleDiscovery     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree Jacques.

KSCartist
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posted 04-07-2008 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The thing is folks, the only patch available from AB is a three name patch.

While I agree this four name version SHOULD be available for some reason AB says it the Astronaut Office hasn't approved it.

We'll need to settle this before an order is placed.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-07-2008 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I expressed this to Tim offline, but I don't really see the appeal of ordering a replica of a patch if it is not made by the company that produced it for the crew. In my mind, it is the equivalent of settling for an autopen when what you really want is an autograph.

The appeal to the AB order, at least to me, is that the patches we will receive were already produced for NASA and the crew. For whatever reason, they aren't being offered for retail sale, but they are still authentic to what the crew will use -- and I believe we will see them on-orbit.

KAPTEC
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posted 04-07-2008 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KAPTEC   Click Here to Email KAPTEC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree too this four names version. It's not approved, but it tomorrow flies... what could we do? Then it will be the REAL official launch patch (approved or not)!

It seems that we also must make this version... look at tomorrow guys.

KSCartist
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posted 04-07-2008 12:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, maybe you could contact the Astronaut Office and/or AB Emblem and inquire as to the disparity of what the crew wears v. what is available to the public. I'd sure like to know.

I agree with you that it is desirable to have a crew patch made by the "official vendor" but I want the patch "just like" the crew wears.

Harald Kraenzel
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posted 04-07-2008 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AB Emblem stated to me:
These [the Exp.17 patches] have been published and are public domain, so I guess we could [make them]
Why should it be a problem to just order this one? Okay, NASA didn't approve the four name patch but it still is public domain, isn't it? Did AB state why the are not willing to make these?

Bill Hunt
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posted 04-07-2008 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hunt   Click Here to Email Bill Hunt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is it possible to do both versions? Personally, I'd like to have both, even if one of them ends up not being official. Obviously they're both out there in use for photos and in the crew's hands, even if one or the other ends up not being approved in the end.

Harald Kraenzel
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posted 04-08-2008 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
This photo was taken today, it's a four name Expedition 17 patch... so I think we should make this patch, and not a three name patch... what do you think?
NASA did update their Expedition 17 page. Looks like that we now can see the complete picture Jacques has enlarged the patch from.

Jacques van Oene
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posted 04-08-2008 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacques van Oene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So looking at the photos from today's crew walk out, I saw a four name Expedition 17 patch on their Sokol suits... so my vote is to make a four name patch (I do not think that should be much of a problem, if AB can make a three name they also can make a four name patch, right?)

Making both a three name and a four name patch is also fine by me, but I do not think we will ever see a Expedition 17 crew member wearing a three-name patch in space... What do you think?

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posted 04-08-2008 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShuttleDiscovery   Click Here to Email ShuttleDiscovery     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I totally agree!

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-08-2008 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
(I do not think that should be much of a problem, if AB can make a three name they also can make a four name patch, right?)
AB can, of course, make anything we desire (and pay for), but the point I thought was that AB did not make a four name patch for NASA or the crew.
quote:
I do not think we will ever see a Expedition 17 crew member wearing a three-name patch in space
I think that it is too early to say and will rely in part on what STS-124 brings to the station...

Harald Kraenzel
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posted 04-08-2008 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
So my vote is to make a four name patch (I do not think that should be much of a problem, if AB can make a three name they also can make a four name patch... right?)

I also agree.

Further on, if I understand the AB's statement correctly they already made both, the three name AND the four name patch for NASA only but NASA didn't approve. This means it should be much easier, isn't it?

KSCartist
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posted 04-08-2008 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let me try to clear this up based on my communication with AB.

The Astronaut Office has NOT APPROVED a four name version. Therefore as NASA's "official patch supplier" they WILL NOT sell it to us.

The Astronaut Office HAS APPROVED a three name version with either Reisman or Chamitoff as the third name.

Maybe after STS-124 launches AB will be allowed to offer a four name version.

KAPTEC
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posted 04-08-2008 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KAPTEC   Click Here to Email KAPTEC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can not believe this topic now.

What are we looking for? The launch patch? Then it's clear: the four names one is what we're looking for.

So we must to ask AB to made this for us (I think...).

Bill Hunt
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posted 04-08-2008 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hunt   Click Here to Email Bill Hunt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So let me see if I have this right:

The three-name patch is the only one officially approved by NASA's astronaut office aside from the no-name patch, but...

The four-name patch is the one being used by the Russians for the Sokol suits?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-08-2008 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is not the first time we have encountered a discrepancy between what NASA has considered the official insignia and what the Soyuz crew has chosen to wear.

Therefore, I'll make a modest proposal: From this point forward, for the sake of reference by collectors, the patches worn on Sokol suits should be referred to only as Soyuz mission patches and the design approved by NASA will be the Expedition patch.

Thus, in this case, the four name version is the Soyuz Expedition 17 patch and the three name version is the ISS Expedition 17 patch. Does that make sense?

aerospace educator
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posted 04-08-2008 08:10 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Whenever I encounter flights where there are variations in patch design, as with the Expedition 15 and 17 designs, I wait to see what is worn during launch/landing and what is posted inside the ISS. Thus, the four-person Expedition 17 patch is the "Sokol version." When the crew post their patch in the ISS, it will be the "inflight version." If there is another variation posted inside the ISS before undocking and landing, it would be "inflight version 2". I really don't care what NASA says is "official," but if I have one of these patches, I would designate it as an "unflown NASA version." Any other patch variations would be designated as "unflown versions."

Harald Kraenzel
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posted 04-09-2008 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
This is not the first time we have encountered a discrepancy between what NASA has considered the official insignia and what the Soyuz crew has chosen to wear.

I have checked the Expedition 13 situation again and this patch is the only one which is left on the station in two versions (First picture from Exp. 13 and second picture from Exp. 14 with rearranged decals.) The first one (top row right in Exp. 13 picture) only shows the names of the "launched crew" with Williams and Vinogradov. For this crew an AB patch exists. Slightly overlapping on the left side the second one is shown with the "inflight crew" Williams, Vinogradov and Reiter showing the names and the German flag. But the official patch approved by NASA and made by AB has the name Reiter but not the German flag.

Therefore the "aerospace educator system" sounds reasonable.

The more global view shows space patch collecting in nower days to turn out to be a detective hobby.

Jacques van Oene
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posted 04-09-2008 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacques van Oene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I find it hard to believe that AB emblem will or can NOT make a four name Expedition 17 patch just because NASA has not approved it. AB is a commercial company that makes patches for whoever wants them (I'm I right about this?).

So when we from cS ask them to make a four name patch, just like the Soyus crew wears on their suits, and pay for it... I can not believe that they will not make it, only because NASA does not like it...

And who made the patches the crew has on their suits? AB?

I hope we can get one good final clear answer on this...

(If AB will not make a four name patch, we have to look at another company that can make them for us...)

KSCartist
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posted 04-10-2008 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I contacted JSC and requested some clarification to this apparent discrepancy between what AB currently offers and what we saw launched.

Here is the reply (with my edits). Hopefully it will help us all understand why.

Currently long-duration crewmembers are very limited on the number of names they can include on a patch before they fly. This is to minimize the number of patches produced with incorrect names, for instance in case of a shuttle launch slip or crew swap.

The informal policy is that crewmembers can only order and launch with a limited number of patches with the names of the crewmembers that are currently on-board for their expedition (and their own name included). They are not to include names of crewmembers that have not yet flown. That way there won't be hundreds of patches lying around with the wrong names. Once they are on-board, the office orders more patches with the limited names.

Once an expedition is complete, the patch with all the names of crewmembers that were on the expedition is produced. The only downside is that that complete patch did not fly with the crewmembers.

The vendor makes a limited number "pre-production" patches with all the names for approval by the crew. In this case, you saw the only two full-name patches that I know of. These "pre-production" patches were delivered to Russia for the Sokol suits.

So my take is that once Expedition 17 is complete AB Emblem should be able to offer a four name patch. Until then I am prepared to settle with a no-name version or the three name version (Volkov-Kononenko and Reisman). It's up to everyone to make their own decision.

I will still accept orders for the three-name version until the end of the month. If you have committed to a number of patches -please re-confirm with me. If we reach a minimum order I'll place the order - if not I'll reutrn your payments in full.

I hope this helps you decide.

ShuttleDiscovery
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posted 04-10-2008 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShuttleDiscovery   Click Here to Email ShuttleDiscovery     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think we should still go ahead with a three name version becuase if AB don't make them for public then they are very rare patches and therefore worth having!

Bill Hunt
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posted 04-10-2008 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hunt   Click Here to Email Bill Hunt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great work, Tim. So AB already has the no-name version available for pre-order. Given what Tim has learned, I say we go ahead with the three-name version now, and then order a four-name version later, once this expedition ends.

Jacques van Oene
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posted 04-13-2008 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacques van Oene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Looking at the different patches (the crew four name patch, the AB no name patch and the AB three name prototype, that we are going to make), I and Luc spotted some mistakes or differences between them (see picture).
  • The biggest mistake is the wrong name for Kononenko. In every Russian document his name is with an "E" and not with an "e" like in the NASA art (take a good look at the four name patch on my site).

  • On the three name prototype patch the field of stars is to far left, compared to the no name from AB...

  • ISS-17 is to dark, has to be same colour blue as border of flags, not the colour blue as in the Russian flag...

  • The dark field in the earth is missing on the no name patch, dark earth with light blue border...

  • Russian names too far up?
So do we want a good patch, or are we just making the three name that Tim got a picture of or... are we just going to wait and see what type of different patches are going to show up on photos from ISS, and STS-124?

aerospace educator
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posted 04-13-2008 12:18 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Always on top of things you are, Jacques and Luc. Scrutinizing the patches as you did, you saw things most of us missed. I know I missed them. I am still voting for the four-crew patch as seen on the launch/entry Sokols. We'll see what is put on the bulkhead of the Destiny module, but I am guessing it will be the same four-person patch or, perhaps, the no name one. Expedition 15 placed the same three-person patch in Destiny that they wore on their Sokols. It should be only a few days after docking that the Expedition 17 patch will be affixed to Destiny's bulkhead. Then, we will know.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-13-2008 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques van Oene:
So do we want a good patch, or are we just making the three name that Tim got a picture of or... are we just going to wait and see what type of different patches are going to show up on photos from ISS, and STS-124?
The answer seems really simple to me: whatever patch AB produced for NASA as a three-name version and which in turn, the agency approved for its internal/inflight use is the patch we should be ordering.

aerospace educator
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posted 04-13-2008 12:32 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I respectfully disagree, as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread. In my collection, I prefer "flown" versions of patches and consider the fact that the astronauts/cosmonauts chose to wear them as the definitive mark of "official." After all, they approved and selected the final design of the patch (patches) and should be considered the official selection committee.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-13-2008 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When we say "NASA approved", as Tim's posts point out, it is the Astronaut Office that is approving the patches. So it is the astronauts who chose the three-name version over the four-name version.

But on the subject of the four-name version, as again Tim wrote, the two four-name patches worn by Volkov and Kononenko were made by AB. AB will sell that version of the patch to us after NASA gives approval at the end of the expedition. Thus, instead of ordering a replica from a third-party company, I am only advocating we wait for the authentic four-name version and order the three-name one now.

ShuttleDiscovery
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posted 04-13-2008 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShuttleDiscovery   Click Here to Email ShuttleDiscovery     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with you Robert. We should produce the three name version now, as this has been accepted by NASA. Then we should wait until we make the four name version.

Harald Kraenzel
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posted 04-13-2008 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harald Kraenzel   Click Here to Email Harald Kraenzel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jacques and Luc, nice detailed look at the patches.

In addition I had a further look at Expedition crew patches:

  • if you see other Expedition patches you will find Russian names containing an "E" and therefore it looks like that the Russian names also are using capitals and if so the "e" is definitely wrong. Therefore the published patches on the NASA site are interesting as they show a "e" in the name Kononenko.

  • On April 7 the Expedition 17 crew wears Expedition 17 patches on their blue overalls that are different from the ones which we see on launch day. On April 7 it is one with "e" and on launch day the one you show here with "E". Would be interesting to know whether AB did make both versions.

Mike Z
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posted 04-13-2008 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Z   Click Here to Email Mike Z     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know why but it seems like NASA and AB Emblem do not like collectors these days. We pay taxes to help support NASA. And buying patches from AB Emblem is only "GOOD" for their business. Why are they making everything so hard? In my opinion NASA should be thanking supporters of the space program!

Bill Hunt
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posted 04-13-2008 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hunt   Click Here to Email Bill Hunt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's certainly gotten frustrating when you can't even quite determine which patch is real or "official." I don't even mind when there are two or three different versions, as long as we have access to purchase the genuine article at a fair price.

I also agree with Robert... we should purchase the three-name version now, and after the mission, AB will let us purchse the four-name version.

Jacques, as far as the thread colors being different, it could the result of the lighting differences, and the fact that the patches have been photographed at different angles. Good spot though on the other differences.

Mike Z
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posted 04-13-2008 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Z   Click Here to Email Mike Z     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree we should purchase the three name patch and when the four name patch is available we can buy that too.

As for color of the threads in the patch, photography and lighting really makes a huge difference. Also sometimes the dye in the thread could differ slightly and bright lights could bring the color out.


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