Dick Williamson-certified Apollo-flown kapton

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Author	Topic: Dick Williamson-certified Apollo-flown kapton
MrMoon Member Posts: 23 From: Pennsylvania Registered: Jul 2001	posted 01-14-2002 05:27 PM I have considered purchasing these foil certificates from time to time but have never done so. There are some questions I could use some help with to get more comfortable with them. How reliable are these items as far a collectibles? Are there forgeries? How and when did they get into the flown items market? Do you know the background of Dick Williamson and how he qualifies to produce these? I realize with even the small amount of foil from one of the of returning capsules thousands of these could be produced, any estimate on how many of them were made? What price range do they sell for? I would guess Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 would be more than the others, is this so? Is there the same availability for all the missions? Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. The foils seem like a rather inexpensive way to obtain hard to get Apollo flown items.
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999	posted 01-14-2002 07:23 PM quote: Originally posted by MrMoon: How reliable are these items as far a collectibles? Are there forgeries? If the kapton (or whatever) is attached to an original (signature is not pre-printed or copied) Williamson certificate, than you can pretty much assume that its bonafide authentic. If you receive a copy certificate (and they do exist) than there is a bit more ambiguity. No one has ever proven that there have been forgeries, but its not a stretch of the imagination that someone with an original Williamson certificate couldn't duplicate it him/herself and then attach a similar but not original artifact. quote: How and when did they get into the flown items market? I don't know the exact date but they have been around for quite some time. The original Superior Galleries auction back in 1993-1994 included a few, if memory serves me correctly. If not Dick Williamson certified, I know similar items were offered well before that (authenticated by Ossie Reid and Robert Miner, among others). quote: Do you know the background of Dick Williamson and how he qualifies to produce these? I know he was a NASA employee -- as to what division he reported, I am unsure. I've been trying to research for an article on Williamson and the other "authenticators" for some time, but haven't gathered enough for an article. Most collectors put trust in Williamson, Reid, Miner, Underwood, and guys like them to be able to certify the small fragments which could not be identified otherwise. quote: I realize with even the small amount of foil from one of the of returning capsules thousands of these could be produced, any estimate on how many of them were made? It depends on what you are counting. Original Williamson certified fragments? I would estimate at most $250 to $500, though I only base that on what I have seen on the market for the past ten years. Duplicates? Many, many more — which could be the originals cut down (hopefully) or something more sinister (hopefully not). quote: What price range do they sell for? I would guess Apollo 11 and Apollo 13 would be more than the others, is this so? Is there the same availability for all the missions? To the best of my knowledge, Williamson did not produce certificates for every mission — though I may be wrong. Apollo 11 certainly draws more attention and therefore more desire, but flown fragments from Apollo 16 and Apollo 17 are much rarer. On average, I see these selling for anywhere between $150 and $600 (though extremes exist on both ends of the spectrum).
Ed beck Member Posts: 227 From: Florida Registered: Aug 2000	posted 01-14-2002 09:00 PM If you are looking for flown gold kapton foil, I suggest you try Spaceflori. Also Ken Havecotte is a very reliable source. He does not have a website that I am aware of, but his email can be found on this site. I am sure that there other reliable sources, but I have been very happy with both of these collector/dealers. They are both outstanding. Right now Florian Noller has gold foils from both Apollo 11 and 12. I have the Apollo 12 presentation, it is very well done. I also have foil from the Apollo Soyuz mission from Ken Havecotte, It is also very nicely presented. Check them out.
MrMoon Member Posts: 23 From: Pennsylvania Registered: Jul 2001	posted 01-16-2002 12:22 PM Thanks to everyone who responded. It sounds like there can be too many questions for me to want to become involved with. I don't like owning something I have to prove is real all the time.
Ben Member Posts: 1896 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: May 2000	posted 01-16-2002 05:20 PM In my opinion, that's a good choice. Don't risk it if you don't know for sure.
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999	posted 01-16-2002 08:51 PM Well, to each their own, but it should be said again that if an item is attached to an original (hand-signed) certificate by Williamson, Miner, or Underwood (to name three) than there should be no question that it is authentic. Unfortunately the very nature of the item itself precludes any other form of authentication. (I should say I have several Miner-authenticated pieces in my collection and feel very comfortable with their inclusion.)
Ben Member Posts: 1896 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: May 2000	posted 01-16-2002 09:13 PM Oh, yea, those actually signed by him I wouldn't doubt. But these that appear on eBay by the week and by the same seller, are not signed by him. The seller states: The certificate is a copy of the original. I have the original certificate in my permanent files. Well, BS, as far as I'm concerned! I also recommend watching out for those that say they have "the original is in their personal files."
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999	posted 01-16-2002 10:13 PM Well, I wouldn't call this issue that cut and dry. I know of at least one very honorable dealer who produces duplicate certificates and I wouldn't doubt for a second that these smaller fragments (cut from a larger original) are authentic. Sometimes, knowing the source (in this case the dealer) is just as paramount as any certification. As one collector likes to point out, you always have to look at the "big picture." Of course, you should never buy something you don't personally feel comfortable with -- but if you fear that others will question while you believe, well, just keep in mind that its your collection and yours alone.
Ben Member Posts: 1896 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: May 2000	posted 01-16-2002 10:42 PM And you're absolutely right about that. I'm certainly expressing my beliefs about the issue. Personally, I feel that I have seen too many of them, and would not go for it in most if not all cases. I don't know any source directly, but I trust those who have a long history, like Ken, and Florian, etc. It's an issue where the buyer, that who questioned, must review the evidence and make his own judgements. (And certainly not an issue that will end too quickly either!)

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