posted 11-23-2014 08:39 AM               

The astronauts had signed a very small number as part of the official activities for the flight (if I recall correctly, it was 10, but could be mistaken), but — and here's where the stories somewhat diverge — NASA didn't want to have to deal with what could amount to a large number of requests and/or they didn't want the astronauts further connected to the commercial sale of the covers.

Over time, all but one of the astronauts on the crew began signing the covers. William Thornton, as late as 10 years ago, said he could not sign the covers until NASA provided him in writing permission to sign them, citing the original agreement with the space agency.

posted 11-23-2014 08:45 AM               

Thanks on behalf of all collectors, Robert, for trying to get that done!

posted 11-25-2014 08:35 AM               

But I have a different opinion as to why Dr. Thornton has always refused to sign the flown covers and it's not because NASA has never changed their original policy on them.

Perhaps Dr. Thornton has had a number of his STS-8 covers signed by the four other STS-8 crew members - say, a couple of dozen or more - and then signed them himself.

Then these very rare complete crew signed flown covers would be quite valuable to his family after his passing. He's controlled the market by not signing and completing any STS-8 flown covers, except those he may have completed himself.

posted 12-08-2014 03:30 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob M:
Surely, many collectors and investors would want one of these famous covers of such rarity.

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The same can be said for his autograph in general though.

I'd find your angle easier to believe if he didn't sign at all.

posted 12-08-2014 04:49 PM               

Yes, indications are that he is steadfastly adhering to NASA's long-forgotten order/request of the crew not signing the flown covers (long broken by the other four crew members) and that STS-8 complete crew signed flown covers will never be available to collectors.

With his stance - noble or otherwise - he is denying collectors (or dealers/opportunists from capitalizing on them) some very special Space Shuttle collectibles that would be enjoyed by many.

posted 12-08-2014 05:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob M:
In stating that the same can be said of his autograph in general though, do you mean if he signed some STS-8 flown covers only himself?

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I'm saying that if he refused to sign anything, then anything bearing his signature would be worth quite a bit for whomever he did sign for.

But since he has no problem with signing what seems like anything else (regardless of the presence of other signatures), then I think it's flawed logic to assume the possibility of him not signing these so that his stockpile may be worth more instead of believing that he's following a long out of date edict that needs to be overturned by NASA.

If he's looking to profit from his autograph or use it to leave his family a nestegg, there are better ways to do it than signing only X number of flown covers and refusing to sign any others, while lying about the reason.

posted 12-09-2014 02:51 PM               

I must say that I agree with the previous post about Thornton's policy. It simply makes no sense. I mean just say you don't sign them because you don't feel like it, you're saving some to sell later, you hate them. Anything would make more sense than that.

posted 12-09-2014 03:40 PM               

While accurate, all your statement means is that they have differing values/opinions, as all people do. In society in general, some don't follow rules or laws that they view as unnecessary or archaic. Others actively campaign for the repeal of those laws, while continuing to follow them until a repeal is granted.

posted 12-09-2014 08:23 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
He was asked not to sign the covers. He doesn't sign the covers. It doesn't get much more simple than that.

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Agreed. Dr. Thornton doesn't owe any of us anything nor is he "depriving" us collectors.

Respect his decision no matter how much you may disagree with it.

posted 12-09-2014 09:47 PM               

I don't think anyone is suggesting he did owe us nor not to respect his decision - I certainly do.

posted 12-11-2014 07:52 AM               

Of course he can sign or not sign anything he wishes - as many astronauts choose to do. As an astronaut autograph collector for 42 years - much longer than many here have been collecting or even alive - have encountered many astronauts who don't sign and give no reason, or return anything sent to them. Do I question them or demand why they don't sign? No I don't and accept their decision (often caused by their autographs being exploited).

But Dr. T's situation is quite different and that's why I was brazen enough to bring up my theory - thinking it would make for an interesting discussion. I considered his decision quite unusual, even unique, and in my humble opinion, of dubious reasoning.

The mistake I made was proposing a theory here, as just a possibility, that him not signing the -8 flown covers was because he had a valuable stash of them stored away awaiting their sale by his descendents. Everyone here is in agreement that this can't be happening, so the book is closed on that theory.

Those of us who are serious about collecting crew signed material are more disappointed by Dr. T's stance than those of you who are content with your -8 flown covers being signed by one to four of the crew.

posted 12-11-2014 08:49 AM               

When I inquired with Thornton back in 2003, it was part of an interview for this site. My follow-up with NASA Headquarters to try to get a letter relinquishing him from the original agreement was out of an interest to help other collectors, like yourself, who desired having their covers signed.

I know that you were just putting forth an idea when you suggested Thornton had other reasons for not signing, but inadvertently that also implied he was being less than honest. The push back you received, at least on my part, was in response to that latter aspect. Thornton hasn't given any reason to think he has been anything but forthcoming, so I don't think it is fair to him to not take him at his word.

posted 12-11-2014 06:27 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The push back you received, at least on my part, was in response to that latter aspect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Glint:
If he freely signs those - and I'm not familiar with his signing habits - it seems that would make his signature less rare, at least for other collectible items.

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That he signs openly and willingly should effectively disprove the conspiracy theories presented here. Same with the independent corroboration we've seen with regards to NASA's inability/unwillingness to lift the ban.

posted 12-12-2014 05:34 PM               

And why would Dr. Thornton want to make his autograph rarer? Or even less rare? Why would he care? And we're not concerned with the rarity of his autograph here, and he's autographed as many items as most other Space Shuttle astronauts, including plenty of other STS-8 and STS-51B covers and crew photos.

posted 12-12-2014 05:54 PM               

If yes, then fine. But if not, then you shouldn't assume that he isn't reading this, or that someone he knows isn't providing him with the text of this thread.

We've seen it before; members discuss an astronaut (or other noted member of the space community) here, assuming the subject of their discussion will never see it, when in fact the subject is very much aware. In at least one situation, it resulted in the person in question ceasing to sign.

posted 12-12-2014 10:51 PM               

He was very kind and signed a few pictures and a book for me. He would not sign my STS-8 cover citing some rules he had sworn to follow after the mission. I guess he is just very principled about it, perhaps too principled after all this time. I did not think that there was any other reason for not signing the cover.

I certainly can understand collectors' disappointment over this policy. Some astronauts do go through phases when they will sign, then get tired and stop. Then perhaps meet a collector they like and start signing again. It is a shame that no one could get NASA to officially revoke their signing policy for that crew.

posted 12-13-2014 08:07 AM               

But if for whatever reason Dr. T does end his signing at 85 years of age and after kindly signing for the autograph hounds for 47 years since he became an astronaut in 1967, he will have provided more than ample quantities of autographs and time for the hounds to acquire his autograph.

But his reason for not signing the STS-8 flown covers is totally different than that of the dozens of astronauts who don't sign mainly because of the commercialization of their autographs, given freely and trustingly. However, Dr. T's reason, as stated by another poster above and not my words, is that it simply doesn't make sense, and is the crux of the matter to me.

Had he stated that he wouldn't sign the flown covers because of profiteers and commercialization, I believe most, including myself, would have sadly accepted that and moved on.

Being a man of honor, and patience, his decision has to be accepted and now all we can hope for is that at this late date and after waiting 30 years for the OK from NASA, he will reconsider and change his decision. If he does, he will make countless collectors happy, as many STS-8 flown covers, signed by four, are waiting.

posted 12-30-2015 08:52 AM               

John asked the commander of STS-8, Dick Truly, if he could provide any information on who in NASA gave the order for the STS-8 crew not to autograph any of the STS-8 flown covers.

Adm. Truly did respond and stated that by his recollection nobody ordered the crew not to autograph the flown covers, rather, Truly himself suggested to the crew that they not autograph them because of the fear of being inundated with too many to sign.

But as time went by, the interest in them decreased and, as stated by Adm. Truly, some of the crew started signing them. And many indications are that all have except Dr. Thornton.

This, as discussed above, is contrary to Dr. Thornton's reason for not signing and that, according to Adm. Truly, he, as STS-8 CDR, "suggested" that they not sign and that the order did not come from NASA not to sign.